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mindpunisher
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>>>And I agree with MP (gasp!). Get a good training. In fact, take many trainings.<<<

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In your case once a year.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-11-16 14:43, dmkraig wrote:
Frankly, this is greatly overstated. People fall down and hurt themselves thousands of times a day. How often does it happen while a person is a participant of a stage show? Rarely. Teachers and parents and religious authorities smash the wills and beliefs of children and adults regularly. How often do hypnotherapists cause any sort of harm to their clients? Rarely.


I don't know how much stage work you do or in what country, but I have to tell you that in the US if someone falls while they are helping with your show get ready for a crapstorm to decend upon you.

While there is little chance of a hypnotherapist harming the client physically, (and this forum is really not dedicated to therapy anyhow) you get 20 people acting and interacting in a show and things can and do happen. The more you work the greater the odds it will happen.

I do not think paranioa is warranted, but to simply say it is rare or whatever is not the way to go either.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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Stage hypnosis is a lot safer than those who offer "training" would have you believe. The main dangers are physical - people falling, injuring each other, etc. Psychological dangers are vastly exaggerated. Sure, someone could suffer a psychotic episode of some sort - but only if they were on the verge of that before they came up. And you should be able to spot it. That could happen during any performance involving a volunteer.
Mark Chapman assasinated John Lennon after becoming obsessed with an actress, Jodie Foster. Do we ban acting? Do we speak of the dangers of acting? Of course not. He was a nut.
There is no harm in doing hypnotherapy training - but it won't do a great deal for your stage show. Any more than studying the psychology of social dominance will help you as a stand-up comedian.
The best way to keep stage hypnosis safe is to eliminate the trouble-makers at the selection stage, and treat all your volunteers with respect.
mindpunisher
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>>>Someone could suffer from a psychotic episode but only if they were on the verge of that before they came up. And you should be able to spot it. That could happen during any performance involving a volunteer.<<<

And you should be able to spot it with half a book under your belt?

There are also physical dangers that come out of bad suggestions that even top pros make. Hypnosis is not acting nothing like it. Your volunteers are not fully in control of their faculties and will respond to suggestions literally that can put them in Danger.

One top hypnotist was sued for 90k due to a suggestion that went wrong and resulted in the volunteer walking straight of a stage with a four foot drop. She broke her hip.Another hypnotist I knew of was waiting for his court case when a volunteer stood on a table and dived off thinking he was the world's greatest swimmer. He sustained a very serious neck injury. Hypnosis is real volunteers do respond to suggestions even ones that put them in danger.

But the biggest danger is the belief that it is totally safe and encouraging newbies to show no respect for both the art and the public and jump in with little regard for anyone but themselves...

Rant over... I will now turn the asylum back over to the lunatics....
Dannydoyle
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By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-16 15:16, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>And I agree with MP (gasp!). Get a good training. In fact, take many trainings.<<<

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In your case once a year.


How could a broken clock only be right once a year? Your attempted insults are as senseless as most of your posts.

Quote:
On 2009-11-16 15:43, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-16 14:43, dmkraig wrote:
Frankly, this is greatly overstated. People fall down and hurt themselves thousands of times a day. How often does it happen while a person is a participant of a stage show? Rarely. Teachers and parents and religious authorities smash the wills and beliefs of children and adults regularly. How often do hypnotherapists cause any sort of harm to their clients? Rarely.


I don't know how much stage work you do or in what country, but I have to tell you that in the US if someone falls while they are helping with your show get ready for a crapstorm to decend upon you.

While there is little chance of a hypnotherapist harming the client physically, (and this forum is really not dedicated to therapy anyhow) you get 20 people acting and interacting in a show and things can and do happen. The more you work the greater the odds it will happen.

I do not think paranioa is warranted, but to simply say it is rare or whatever is not the way to go either.


Okay, if it's not rare, why aren't there media REVELATIONS about how many dozens of people are being harmed in stage shows? Danny, it is rare. That doesn't mean you should ignore the potential of it happening. The reason that it does happen rarely is because professional hypnotists are aware of the potential and are alert to prevent it.

How many shows have you given in the last five years?
How many times has this happened to you?

Posted: Nov 17, 2009 3:14am
Tony and MP: where is the evidence of hundreds of people having psychotic breaks during stage hypnosis shows?

How about just dozens of people having such breaks? After all, there are thousands of shows performed each year, so if this is a problem, shouldn't there be a union of stage show hypnosis victims (the USSHV) by now?

There's just no evidence that this is a major or even a minor problem.

MP mentioned one case of someone falling off a stage. IMO one such person is one too many. However that's what, a problem that occurs in perhaps 0.01% of all hypnosis shows?

Performers need to be alert to such problems, but they are the exception, not the rule.
mindpunisher
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Craig I can't believe that no one on here has come close to injuring someone. Especially in the earlier days of their career. I can't believe that no one recognises the dangers associated with careless suggestions and lack of knowledge and experience. And actually Craig I mentioned two both were top performers with many many years experience.

Over here there was an organisation which probably does still exist that looked after victims of stage hypnosis. It was run by a prominent member of the dental hypnosis association in the UK. They had dozens of people on their books. The association was run by doctors and psychiatrists who were anti stage work.

Agree with them or not there were a flood of documentaries over here in the UK during the busy years with many claims and cases.

To say hypnosis has no dangers is about as useful as the withdrawal method for contraception.

Performers may need to be aware but Newbies need to be trained.
Dannydoyle
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Craig, I have done ever 1,000 shows in the past 5 years, and the fact that I take extaordinary care not to have things happen does not mean they do not happen.

Man here this is going to hurt, BUT I agree with MP. More experienced guys need to take care, newbies need to be trained.

Early in my career I had some close calls. All physical in nature. Only made the mistakes once each.

I agree it is rare. Ignoring it will make it less so. Training the newbies not to do stupid stuff will make it almost non existant I agree. BUT improper training will cause an escelation.

How many people are almost killed every year doing a suspended strait jacket escape? It happens. Why? Mostly because they are not educated properly about how to do it properly. Same here. I am not saying it is an epidemic, I am not saying it happens that often, I am not saying anything of the sort. I am saying it can happen and it is the FAR more dangerous part of hypnosis compared to the psychotic break stuff.

The psychotic break stuff I am not even going to comment on. I have not had it happen nor seen it happen nor no anyone it happened to.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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MP: so let's look at your post.
1) you can't believe that no one here has "come close to injuring someone," but provide NO evidence to support the claim that anyone has done so.

2) You show that some pros with "many many years experience" each have had 1 problem. If we assume that in the last 5 years they've each done a minimum of 100 shows a year, the percentage of such problems is 0.2%. To me--and to any statistician--that's rare.

3) I note that you don't give us an estimate of how many shows you've done along with the number of times someone has been injured during your shows. Are you saying that injury during your shows was common?

4) Of COURSE it was some anti-Stage hypnosis people--none of whom were professional stage hypnotists--who just happened to discover alleged "victims" of stage hypnosis. I imagine in their spare time they're finding dozens of victims of ritual Satanic abuse, too. Where is the data? Where is the proof that these "victims" are suffering? Where is the evidence that most of these people didn't have problems long before being part of a show?

I have seen not ONE drop of evidence that hypnosis has any dangers. Period. Full stop.

I have seen evidence that in rare instances, hypnotists who aren't paying attention can be at fault in allowing an injury to happen during a show. This is rare and is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who are injured in the building trades industry.

I have seen ANECDOTAL (i.e., not scientific proof) that while hypnotized, a hypnotist could give a person a suggestion that might cause a negative psychological response. I have seen NO evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this is a problem that is lasting for the person. Perhaps you could point to some record where hundreds...okay, dozens...okay, a few people have lasting problems as the SOLE result of being in a stage hypnosis show. Further, such data should indicate how this is different than the impressions of parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, etc. have placed on people without hypnosis but which have have long-term negative repercussions.

Performers, IMO, need to be aware of potential problems so they can prevent them from taking place. Performers, IMO, need to maintain alertness during performances so they can put that awareness into practice.
In most cases, IMO, this means if a person wants to be a professional, he or she should get in-person training.

Hypnosis has no dangers. What people do AFTER someone has been hypnotized has some dangers that are rare and can be avoided through training, awareness, and alertness.

Claiming that there are horrendous problems is like waving your arms shouting, "Danger Will Robinson!" It's undocumented, illogical, and way overstated.
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2009-11-17 03:14, dmkraig wrote:
Tony and MP: where is the evidence of hundreds of people having psychotic breaks during stage hypnosis shows?

I didn't say that hundreds of people had psychotic breaks during stage shows. I said it COULD happen. In fact, that was the subject of at least one court case in Britain in the past decade - though the case was thrown out. Personally, in hundreds of shows, I have never seen an adverse psychological reaction, and I don't expect to.

Mindpunisher, you asked could I spot someone with psychological problems with half a book of training under my belt. Ignoring the fact that I have vastly more training than that (half a book was sufficient for my first show; I've studied since) I could spot a nut case with half a bottle of whiskey on board. Most of us could.

If you keep the wackos off your stage and treat your volunteers with respect you can reduce possible risks to a very small percentage.

In all my years I have had one accident. A wall at the back of the stage was poorly constructed and a volunteer, during the induction, leant against the wall and it callapsed under him. He was uninjured and was a great volunteer. I had a team from the Students Union form a human wall at the back of the raised stage for the rest of the show.

Twelve years, one accident. Not bad.

As a magician I have slashed my wrist, suffered horrific burns when a pyro flash ignited in my arms, slipped a disc, been punched by a drunk... No one speaks of the dangers of magic.

Stage hypnosis, done properly, is safe.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-11-17 11:55, dmkraig wrote:
MP: so let's look at your post.
1) you can't believe that no one here has "come close to injuring someone," but provide NO evidence to support the claim that anyone has done so.

2) You show that some pros with "many many years experience" each have had 1 problem. If we assume that in the last 5 years they've each done a minimum of 100 shows a year, the percentage of such problems is 0.2%. To me--and to any statistician--that's rare.

3) I note that you don't give us an estimate of how many shows you've done along with the number of times someone has been injured during your shows. Are you saying that injury during your shows was common?

4) Of COURSE it was some anti-Stage hypnosis people--none of whom were professional stage hypnotists--who just happened to discover alleged "victims" of stage hypnosis. I imagine in their spare time they're finding dozens of victims of ritual Satanic abuse, too. Where is the data? Where is the proof that these "victims" are suffering? Where is the evidence that most of these people didn't have problems long before being part of a show?

I have seen not ONE drop of evidence that hypnosis has any dangers. Period. Full stop.

I have seen evidence that in rare instances, hypnotists who aren't paying attention can be at fault in allowing an injury to happen during a show. This is rare and is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who are injured in the building trades industry.

I have seen ANECDOTAL (i.e., not scientific proof) that while hypnotized, a hypnotist could give a person a suggestion that might cause a negative psychological response. I have seen NO evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this is a problem that is lasting for the person. Perhaps you could point to some record where hundreds...okay, dozens...okay, a few people have lasting problems as the SOLE result of being in a stage hypnosis show. Further, such data should indicate how this is different than the impressions of parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, etc. have placed on people without hypnosis but which have have long-term negative repercussions.

Performers, IMO, need to be aware of potential problems so they can prevent them from taking place. Performers, IMO, need to maintain alertness during performances so they can put that awareness into practice.
In most cases, IMO, this means if a person wants to be a professional, he or she should get in-person training.

Hypnosis has no dangers. What people do AFTER someone has been hypnotized has some dangers that are rare and can be avoided through training, awareness, and alertness.

Claiming that there are horrendous problems is like waving your arms shouting, "Danger Will Robinson!" It's undocumented, illogical, and way overstated.


More people die in car accidents too, so what? Completly pointless comparison to the trade industries. Heck when you use statistics 100% of Popes have died in office, that is the most DANGEROUS job in the world!

I do have to agree that to claim danger based upon anticidotal evidence is not the way to go either. Ignoring it and saying there have been NO PROBLEMS full stop, is also just as ignorant.

A simple acknowegement of the fact that physical problems can happen and the operator needs to be aware of them, yet not afraid of them, seems a sensiblle middle ground.

As for "psychological" dangers I pose only an interesting story. I started doing the show in Branson Missouri. A theater owner came up to me and we talked about what I did and all that. Then he pointed out how he had a strange side effect from a hypnosis show. He was in a show about 50 years ago, and ever since then he wrote backwards. (you had to hold it up to a mirror to read it) Wanted to know if I could snap him out of it. I had already prior to this expressed that I thought lasting effects from things like hypnosis were bunkum so he then proceded to show me! He wrote backwards PERFECTLY. He even had me sign my name, then duplicated it, BACKWARDS! It as a perfect copy if you looked at it in a mirror!

Now I start to feel badly for the guy and start to maybe reconsider my belief in the process. It was amazing, he would copy paragraphs from books, backwards. It was an odd affliction.

I remained non commital about the whole thing and after a while the jig was up. It was just a talent he had all his life but thought that the hypnosis show after effect would be a good gag. OH IT WAS! I never really lost it or fell for it or anything like that but darn it was funny. Inside I was just wondering what the heck was happening. The old dude was funny and got me.

SO that is as close as I have to "evidence" of any lasting effects. A practical joke played on me by a master! Aparantly he had hit another hypnotist with this and had him going for WEEKS trying to take away his "affliction". Glad I didn't fall for it, but wish I could have watched.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled arguement.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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Great story, Danny. I laughed out loud - not a common occurance on this forum!
dmkraig
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It's very odd, but we all seem to be saying the same thing:
1) the dangers of stage hypnosis are grossly overstated
2) Even so, there is a slight possibility that they could happen
3) Therefore, it would be advisable for professionals to be aware of the possibility, be alert to prevent it, and be trained so that he or she knows what to do in the exceedingly rare situation where it does happen.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-11-16 22:18, Dannydoyle wrote:
By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.


They may be physical but that they were both caused by bad suggestion. They were caused by careless hyposis. Either way they are dangers I don't see calling them psycholigical or mental makes them any less dangerous?
TonyB2009
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Even though I do not believe in hypnosis I specifically include safety instructions in my suggestions:
You will not jump from the stage.
You will not attack one another.
You will not leave the room.
You wll not climb on anything.
Obviously not all together. When appropriate.
mindpunisher
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You missed A couple

THE HYPNOTIST WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR BEST FRIEND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!

IF YOU HURT YOURSELF OR SUFFER SEVERE MENTAL DAMAGE MY NAME IS PAUL MCKENNA!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-11-17 18:46, mindpunisher wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-16 22:18, Dannydoyle wrote:
By not agreeing with us you have proven our point. The dangers you outlined, BOTH of the examples you chose to put forth are PHYSICAL dangers!

Yes bad suggestions led to them but they are physical dangers indeed. Thank you for agreeing.


They may be physical but that they were both caused by bad suggestion. They were caused by careless hyposis. Either way they are dangers I don't see calling them psycholigical or mental makes them any less dangerous?


No but it would make it more right and easier to talk about. The careless hypnotist seems to be the great danger, and I believe we all agree on this part.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertTemple
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I back up MindPunisher here... you can't beat hands on training. It'll cost you, but its the most sure-fire and effective way to learn. Without a doubt.

In answer to the original question? It's as dangerous as a gun - it needs to be handled sensibly and then it is safe.

Simple as that, I guess.
Dannydoyle
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I have to say I have seen some "hands on" training that just blows. Is that good to do?

I still say the best way is to find a mentor. Someone you spend copious amounts of time with to learn. Not easy to do any more but still a good way to go.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Perhaps if you contact the insurance company here http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=22

you can get an indication of how many "falls" have taken place. As I said it does happen, but not often. Best to be prepared.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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