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mindpunisher
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Hands on training that blows sucks or farts is dependant upon the trainer. It is still better than no training. Like any service it is up to the client or customer to do his due dilligence before entering into a contract.

A mentor or a trainer same thing really.

Any hypnotist who jumps in without proper training/mentoring is careless

>>No but it would make it more right and easier to talk about. The careless hypnotist seems to be the great danger, and I believe we all agree on this part.<<

The thing about stage hypnosis is that everything we do on stage IS stage hypnosis. Not just relaxing someone and inducing the state. It is a silly argument to say hypnosis is harmless when really we are talking about the whole activity.

Also it is much easier to see and quantify the physical damage. The doesn't mean the possibility of mental damage is not possible. Again not by isolating the simple act of relaxing someone and inducing hypnosis but by the whole process and complete actions of doing stage work. There are people with emotional problems, vulnerable and open to having their situation worsened. It is our responsability to look after them.

I know from experience that simple suggestions given to people in moments of vulnerability can have a major impact on their lives for many years. And I am not talking about stage work. I have worked with many in a therapy situation.

So it follows that the suggestions and situations can have a prolonged effect on some people who end up on stage. And although it may not be attributed to the act of "hypnotising" someone. It can be attributed to the "experience" of being on stage. I think that is where health professionals are making most of their points.

For some people to feel "humiliated" and not be in control could trigger prolonged stress and anxiety afterwards.

The thing is we all have emotional baggage.

I have had people fall at my shows I have done things that are risky I am not an angel. Even later on when I became a little more responsable there have been a few times where if my luck were to go a little the other way I could've been in trouble.

Ok its not all doom and gloom but the risk is still there non the less.
Dannydoyle
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MP you use words like, "could" "might" "it follows" and things that indicate no concrete proof of what you are saying exists.

As for being "humiliated" at being on stage, well what in the world would make them volunteer in the first place if that happens to them?

You want to extend and expand your definition, without concrete examples. If things like this were happening you would be able to give us examples with stories in print of the happenings.

Science and law are not matters of may, could, might for many years to come, or any other fudge words you want to use to make a point without proof to pose. I agree it is far easier to quantify phsical damage, but that is what leads to so much rumor and myth about hypnosis in the first place.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-17 18:56, mindpunisher wrote:
You missed A couple

THE HYPNOTIST WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR BEST FRIEND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!

IF YOU HURT YOURSELF OR SUFFER SEVERE MENTAL DAMAGE MY NAME IS PAUL MCKENNA!


LOL! Okay, MP, you get 2 points for that one!

Quote:
On 2009-11-18 09:54, Hawley Harvey wrote:
I have been doing stage hypnosis shows for some considerable time. I agree entirely with Danny Doyle that 95% of harm done to subjects are physical matters. The odds are very slim indeed of mental harm. And that 5% is not as a result of the hypnosis itself but of an underlying condition.

That possibility can easily be take care of in your initial remarks. I always warn the audience before volunteers arrive on stage that if anyone suffers from any psychiatric disturbance or severe stress it would be better if they do not appear on stage.


That's nice, except general terms such as "psychiatric disturbance" or "severe stress" could apply to anyone. They are meaningless, unspecific, and unenforceable.
ArtIn
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I really appreciate all of your opinions.
thanks for that.

Like described earlier this topic does'nt seem to allow for general clarification.
I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist.

Well one important argument of hypnosis victims is the following:
psychological disorders may occur after everything tooks place.
They go home and boom...

how to comment on that?

I am also coincident in opinion with Dirk Treusch a professional german hypno therapist and trainer.
"you as a hypnotist create your own reality. that reality will reflect on your subjects"

if you have deep fears about psychological trouble which can occur with your subjects you will automatically increasing potential for that risk.
this theory you can base extremly well on workings of the mirror neuron.
for me it makes quit sense!
if you are confident your subject will feel confident.

I am willing to believe and respond to that behaviour.

for me it makes no sense to compare magic with hypnotism as well I am understand what you wanted to say with that tony.

all the best,
art
mindpunisher
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>>>I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist<<<<<

Pro's will not entertain the idea of hypnosis being potentially damaging because they make a living from it. You will never get an unbiased opinion on this here.

Many don't have much training beyond a book or dvd when it comes to hypnosis in general. Therefore its not surprising you won't get a clearn unbiased view.

Go search the opposite side of the argument the health profssionals view. Then realise the true answers lie somewhere in between.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-19 07:56, mindpunisher wrote:
>>>I see pros arguing about physical safty which was also told me first.
on the opposite there was no evidence given about real psycholocial troubles.
But I will not deny that they exsist<<<<<

Pro's will not entertain the idea of hypnosis being potentially damaging because they make a living from it. You will never get an unbiased opinion on this here.



So since you seem to be paranoid about such shows being "potentially damaging" (no matter how unlikely it might be), I guess you're saying you're not a pro.


Quote:
Many don't have much training beyond a book or dvd when it comes to hypnosis in general. Therefore its not surprising you won't get a clearn unbiased view.


"Many?" What's "many?" Half of the stage hypnotists? Two-thirds? Five or six?
When did you do the surveys of several hundreds of hypnotists to gain the raw data for this claim?
What school did you go to where you trained, beyond a book or dvd, in running surveys?

Quote:
Go search the opposite side of the argument the health profssionals view. Then realise the true answers lie somewhere in between.


Uh, no. Truth is truth and not dependent upon opinion from either side.
You have presented NO documentation to support your claim of what "many" are doing.
You're using broad, generalized terms, such as "many," rather than specifics, making your claims meaningless.

Opinions about truth are certainly based on beliefs. Opinions can be used to hide the truth. But facts remain facts and you have presented none.
mindpunisher
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Craig you are a good example of a psychotic and paranoid hypnotist that will go to any rediculous lenght to tell the world hypnosis is completely safe.

What psychiatric background do you have to substantiate those claims? By asking YOU to do the research then YOU take responsabilty for educating yourself. It is a fact that many medical practitioners and psychiatrists do indeed think its potentially harmful. In fact many years ago I was on tv on the news giving the veiwpoint from a stage hypnotist to balance out the claims of a prominent member of the medical community.

I am not here to prove anything one way or another. However I am correct in saying that you will not get an unbiased or balanced view on this forum.

You certainly do not have the credentials to claim anything.

My posts rather than claims on this subject are only meaning less if you do not care to do your homework.

From personal experience I know that stage shows do carry certain risks. And no one that does shows can ever be certain that some of the more vulnerable people who volunteer are not open to risks.

Your opinions are more to do with easing your conscience and selling your show rather than truth. As are those that sell products to those with no experience and encourage them to jump in being ill prepared.

And that IS the truth.
mota
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James, I will be happy to share now. I got an evasive answer that the poster will no doubt try to twist to show he was right.

I was yanking his chain.

Anyone that has been to MLK Boulevard in south Dallas knows it is a place of horrible poverty and looks like a bombed out, third world country. Had this person actually been knowledgeable in the least about this area his response would have been immediate.

The last group to play this area was the Dallas Police Department SWAT team.
James Munton
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Yes, that does sound like the sort of place Della would perform!

Best,
James
mindpunisher
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This place needs a resident psychiatrist. magicians may be weirdos and socially inadequate but hypnotists are just plain crazy..
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-19 12:30, mindpunisher wrote:
Craig you are a good example of a psychotic and paranoid hypnotist that will go to any rediculous lenght to tell the world hypnosis is completely safe.

What psychiatric background do you have to substantiate those claims?


LOL! You start by making a psychological diagnosis (for which, if you were in the U.S., you could be jailed for practicing medicine without a license), and then have the cajones to ask for my CV in this area? You're just too funny.

By the way, I did help start the telephone counseling hotline, including training, for the people at the University of California, San Diego, when I was there years ago.

So where did you get your degree in psychology? And with a degree in psychology, why are you spending your time doing stage hypnosis? Oh, that's right, you don't give shows any more.

[quote}By asking YOU to do the research then YOU take responsabilty for educating yourself. It is a fact that many medical practitioners and psychiatrists do indeed think its potentially harmful. In fact many years ago I was on tv on the news giving the veiwpoint from a stage hypnotist to balance out the claims of a prominent member of the medical community.[/quote]

Once again you make wild claims without supporting them.
1) What, specifically, do you mean by "many" medical practitioners and psychiatrist?
2) How "many" make up this "many?"
3) What makes them experts in hypnosis? A person can have advanced degrees in medicine and psychology without ever taking any training in hypnosis.

Quote:
I am not here to prove anything one way or another. However I am correct in saying that you will not get an unbiased or balanced view on this forum.

You certainly do not have the credentials to claim anything.


But YOU'RE the one making claims. You say you're not here to prove anything, but you make wild claims without any proof. ***, man! You sound like a politician in the U.S.

Quote:
My posts rather than claims on this subject are only meaning less if you do not care to do your homework.


Uh, no. Your claims are meaningless when you make generalized statements without any support for them. Anybody can claim anything. You can claim that Mars is covered with canals, but if you don't prove your claims, they're meaningless. It's not up to anyone to prove or disprove your claims, it's up to you to support them.

Quote:
From personal experience I know that stage shows do carry certain risks. And no one that does shows can ever be certain that some of the more vulnerable people who volunteer are not open to risks.


But that's called "anecdotal evidence" and is not considered scientific. Just because there are risks for YOU when you did hypnosis shows doesn't mean there are the same risks for anyone else.

Quote:
Your opinions are more to do with easing your conscience and selling your show rather than truth. As are those that sell products to those with no experience and encourage them to jump in being ill prepared.

And that IS the truth.


No. My opinions are based on scientific research and facts. You make wild, unsupported statements. Further, you are totally misstating my opinions, which I have repeatedly posted here. I have NEVER encouraged a person to "jump in being ill prepared." I have consistently advised getting in-person training and using videos and books to complement and enhance the training.

So let's see. You lie about me. You make broad statements with no supporting facts. But you attack me.
In computerese that's called: EPIC FAIL

LOL!!!!
mindpunisher
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Your rambling gets more tedious with each post. I don't lie about you - anyone on here can see you are inconsistent often incoherant and do not have grasp of the basics.

Fact: many psychiatrists and medical professionals believe stage hypnosis is harmful to certain types of people. I have appeard on news programmes with them.

Your opinions are based upon a bias to make stage hypnosis look like sunday school because you make a living from it. As most on here are.

My statements are neither wild or unsupported. We both know there are members of the medical community that think stage hypnosis is dangerous and should be banned.

Epic Fail? Man you really are deluded Craig. If it gets your rocks off who am I to spoil the illusion for you.

Cheap thrills are what makes the world go round..

What is this current trend at shouting "attack attack" you are a bunch of women and I aplogise to women for the association.

You make me laugh though. This forum gets crazier by the hour. There are more loonies on here than Bedlam.
ArtIn
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>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<

dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.

Please guys do not treat each other with hostility.
that's exactly what I experienced with hypnosis.

People who want you to feel comfortable with it.
People who want to make it enjoyable for everybody.
People who tell you that there are dangers.
People who make you feel like a criminal about it.

What about theory that so called "empty hypnosis" is'nt harmful at all.
Can someone confirm that?

Will a rapid induction followed by fractionation and given suggestions of good feeling may lead into a psychosis? or at least cause any psychologial damage?

the problem is real experience is the only way to learn it.

best regards,
art
mindpunisher
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The real problem is nobody knows for sure what hypnosis is. You will find scientific evidence that it exists and evidence that it doesn't. You will find opposite views on its safety depending upon where you look. There are extreme views on both sides of the coin. And hypnosis must be taken as the whole experience on stage not just the induction.

My preference is to have a balanced veiw and always be open to the possibilities that it could be dangerous or damaging for certain people. That way you are at least prepared.

Nothing on this planet that involves other humans is 100% safe.

Posted: Nov 23, 2009 6:34am
Art - I think Craig is a good example of how hypnosis can either attract psychotics or create them I'm not sure which is the real cause.

But take everything he says with a pinch of salt. He is a prime loon and a good reason we should have tougher regulation around hypnosis.

Quote:
On 2009-11-18 13:15, dmkraig wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-18 09:54, Hawley Harvey wrote:
I have been doing stage hypnosis shows for some considerable time. I agree entirely with Danny Doyle that 95% of harm done to subjects are physical matters. The odds are very slim indeed of mental harm. And that 5% is not as a result of the hypnosis itself but of an underlying condition.

That possibility can easily be take care of in your initial remarks. I always warn the audience before volunteers arrive on stage that if anyone suffers from any psychiatric disturbance or severe stress it would be better if they do not appear on stage.


That's nice, except general terms such as "psychiatric disturbance" or "severe stress" could apply to anyone. They are meaningless, unspecific, and unenforceable.


Craig another example of your obsession to try and get your money's worth out of your corrospondance course on NLP. You try and meta question everything without even thinking.

psychiatric disturbance or severe stress is pretty clear to most people. If there is something wrong with you don't volunteer. Or are you going to stand up there with a psychiatric dictionary and read out all the labels that they use?

I mean honestly stop and think before you post.
dmkraig
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LOL! The terms can mean anything to anyone. As such, they are meaningless. Just like many of your posts.
TonyB2009
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I'm with Mindpunsher. Psychiatric disturbance or severe stress are quite clear lay terms, and your audience will know what they mean, even if you don't. You give the warning, and that weeds out most. You can spot most of the rest. In all my years performing I have never had a disturbed person last beyond the first routine, because they are not difficult to spot. You just have to be alert.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<

dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.



Which ones, Artin?
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-11-23 11:44, TonyB2009 wrote:
I'm with Mindpunsher. Psychiatric disturbance or severe stress are quite clear lay terms,


Really, Tony?
Perhaps you could provide a few websites that give a definition of those specific terms? I've done several searches for the first and haven't found anything, and the second is so general as to be meaningless (what is "severe" and what isn't?).

Quote:
and your audience will know what they mean, even if you don't.


Actually, I think it would be more likely that the more a person is suffering from stress or some undiagnosed psychiatric disorder the less likely they would know what those expressions apply to them.

For example, MP's statement that people here should listen to him more could be construed as signs of a persecution complex. However, if you ask him, I'm sure he'd be the first to adamantly deny it. He's fine. It's the rest of us who have the problems!

Quote:
You give the warning, and that weeds out most. You can spot most of the rest. In all my years performing I have never had a disturbed person last beyond the first routine, because they are not difficult to spot. You just have to be alert.


I fully agree that you should give a warning and that you should be able to spot potential problems early on. My only issue is with the meaningless wording of the "warning" as described. Here in the U.S. (which, admittedly, is what I'm going by), if you gave that warning and someone with problems came on stage only to have those problems manifest (whether it was the fault of the hypnotist or not), that person could still sue you saying that your warning (i.e., technically a legal disclaimer) was neither clear nor specific.
ArtIn
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Quote:
On 2009-11-23 17:08, dmkraig wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-23 04:45, ArtIn wrote:
>>My opinions are based on scientific research and facts<<


@dmkraig

I would like to read about that if you have some links or sources for me.



Which ones, Artin?


I meant a source (books, internet links) of those scientific researches and facts.
if there is something to read about specifically I would be glad to do.

how do you phrase your warning for your audience?

I appreciate mindpunishers opinion and I still think it's some kind of "healthy view".
the fact of considering that there could go something wrong with somebody.
it does'nt have to happen but to be prepared could'nt be a bad initial situation.


@mindpunisher

empty hypnosis is not about doing only a induction.

my question was can that whole progress:
[concentration exercises - magnetic fingers - magnetic palms -> followed by a rapid induction -> followed by suggestions for a stiff arm or levitating arms and suggestions of wellness! -> at least leading the subject out of hypnosis.

can that progress damage somebody.
can that cause a psychosis or psychological disturbance?

what would anthony jaquin say about that theme?

just out of curiosity
did somebody plan going to blackpool next year?

best regards,
martin
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
my question was can that whole progress:
[concentration exercises - magnetic fingers - magnetic palms -> followed by a rapid induction -> followed by suggestions for a stiff arm or levitating arms and suggestions of wellness! -> at least leading the subject out of hypnosis.

can that progress damage somebody.
can that cause a psychosis or psychological disturbance?

what would anthony jaquin say about that theme?

just out of curiosity
did somebody plan going to blackpool next year?

best regards,
martin


Hi Martin,

no I would not expect the process you outlined above to CAUSE psychosis or psychological damage. If some believe that it can then I would like to see the evidence and will revise my view.

If someone is already psychotic or psychologically damaged then they should not be on your stage by that point. If someone does not know they are psychotic or psychologically damaged then all you have left is your gut feeling and experience about whether they are suitable for your performance.

Keep health and safety top of your agenda. Abreaction is rare but real and easily dealt with if you are prepared for it. Check Equity or Stage Hypnosis Act for the guidelines that must be included in your intro.

Yes I will be at Blackpool, let's catch up there.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

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