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PsiDroid
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Quote:
On 2009-10-15 19:30, mindpunisher wrote:

You remind me of someone who has been programmed to believe in a cult. Blind with your eyes wide open.

And the fact you say you won't get bogged down in a medical debate is evidence that you have no clue what is going on. This has nothing to with a medical debate.

But since you operate from an incredibly simple view of the world its understandable you won't be able to grasp that. So I will take your climb down and excuse as a sign that both of your wooden legs have been kicked from under your pompous ass.



he reminds you that because he is a programmed person with a simplistic world view: in two words - HIS own view is the only right one for everybody : And to hell other views

MMMMh.. I begin to suspect bobser and tony are belonging to the same cult
mindpunisher
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At least Bobser has a sense of humour..
TonyB2009
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Guys, its all too much for me. Doctors are killing us, and we have the internet for evidence. I am going to leave you complex men to sort it all out, and I will return to the simple pleasures of a book. At the moment I am reading The Nasty Bits, by Anthony Bourdain. Its great fun. Tony.
dmkraig
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In Los Angeles in 1976, doctors went on strike to protest increasing costs of malpractice insurance. The death rate decreased by 18%. When the strike ended, the death rate returned to prestrike proportions.
mindpunisher
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Tony its not the internet that's giving us the evidence. Its official government figures and the highly prized and esteemed peer research you keep going on about. It just happens to be published on the internet.

Are you now telling us these sources are wrong? You seem a bit mixed up? We can't make it any simpler for you. We can show you evidence by your standards but that's no good either?

I think you should bury yourself in your book at least there you don't have to face simple reality. Seems like you don't really subscribe to the truth and what we "understand" as to how things really are.

How can anyone on here take you seriously now? You don't even follow your own philosophy.
TonyB2009
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Just finished Bourdain's book and about to move on to another. But I'll spare a minute to point out a simple error you complex men have made. You can quote as many statistics as you like but the facts are SIMPLE.
There are three possible outcomes from medical intervention. The most common outcome (the vast majority of cases) is that the condition improves. A less likely outcome is that there is no change in the condition, and this tells the doctor that he should change his treatment technique. The third possible outcome is that the medical intervention makes the condition worse. This third outcome is not common but is certainly not unknown.
I know many people die as a rseult of the treatment they receive. I just dispute your assertion that it is the most common cause of death.
But why were those people receiving medical treatment? Because they were sick. And how many more of them would have died had there been no medical intervention? If you want an answer to that question, just think back to Mesmer's time, when infant mortality was very high, average life expectancy was in the thirties and forties, and simply treatable conditions regularly resulted in death.
Push the clock back if you like guys, but it won't make you right. Just stubborn.
Now back to my book...
dmkraig
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Although it would be unethical, the real question, IMO, is whether or not the majority of the people who were ill, received medical intervention, and got better, would have gotten better without medical intervention? If so, then two things are obvious from such an outcome:

1) Lots of money, perhaps billions, is being wasted with unneeded medical interventions, and
2) The percentage of good outcomes to bad outcomes drastically decreases.
mindpunisher
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First of all Tony - its not my assertion its the assertion of peer review research found in the american medical journal as well stats from US Government.

Personally I don't care one way or another. The fact is the Medical world do not understand how the mind or how healing works. They don't truly understand how half of their treatments work. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many **** ups now would there?

If you look at these stats most of the problems were caused becaused they should never been treated in the first place. Medical practice is NOT always right. In fact its quite clear its frequently wrong.

In Mesmers time he was probably at least as successful than medicine of that time. Just because we have moved on in time doesn't mean by studying what he did is pushing back time. There will be benefits from doing so.

Its actually quite simple to sort out a whole range of mental and emotional problems with a few sessions of hypnotherapy. However doctors prefer to get patients on useless drugs for years and into their system because that is where their power base lies.

No one is disputing the triumphs and benefits of medicine. However medicine is not always right. infact its frequently wrong. Its not the whole story. Far from it.

But this isn't about medicine... Anyone reading the thread can make up their own minds about your credibility.
dmkraig
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On 2009-10-17 20:02, mindpunisher wrote:
In Mesmers time he was probably at least as successful than medicine of that time. Just because we have moved on in time doesn't mean by studying what he did is pushing back time. There will be benefits from doing so.


Indeed, one of the major reasons King Louis was asked to set up a commission to investigate Mesmer was specifically because the doctors of the time--the predecessors of today's MDs and who were specialists who practiced bleeding, didn't worry about cleanliness, and believed women should suffer horribly during childbirth--were losing patients to Mesmer. Worse, they were leaving Mesmer cured instead of "leaving" the doctors dead.
Anthony Jacquin
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I thought Mesmer repeatedly asked for the investigatory commission himself and had his request turned down many times?

Perhaps I have been reading the wrong hypnosis history books.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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dmkraig
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On 2009-10-18 11:58, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
I thought Mesmer repeatedly asked for the investigatory commission himself and had his request turned down many times?



He may have requested such an investigation, but the famous French commission was not done at his request and never even talked with him.
blondins
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I have read you interesting discussion. I'm dr. Blondins, working in team with d. Marco Paret director of the school you spoke of.
A friend of mine spoke me of your discussion about our site http://www.mesmerismus.info and I I want to precise that the technique we teach is based both on the ancient techniques as well on the most recent researches.
And we are always researching as we think that when you think you are arrived there is always something new to discover.
The results we achieve with our techniques are exactly what we speak of in the site.

About the theory:
Socrates said that the most important is knowing that we don't know.
My opinion: I only know the results I get, the theory are words. In the year 1700 there were some people saying that meteorits didn't exist as it was impossible for a stone to fall from the sky. For supporting this idea, they said that these stones fall always in inhabitated places, and never in the towns. Now we know meteorits exist. I know the theory of social compliance and his elements are surely true, but it also true the psychological theory of hypnosis, seeing it as a psychological result and the physiological one, seeing the state of hypnosis similar to what we can get in chicken or other animals. In our school we teach also the energetic paradigm.
When we use more paradygms together we will be stronger and more effective, and in reality it is difficult to divide them: for example it is impossible to speak effectively to a client without "intention" (very important for the energetic paradygm) and with intention we work on an energetic level without even being aware of. At the same time it is difficult to create a paradygm where we can have social compliance without taking attention to the individual psychologies. I think that it is more important to put our attention on the results we get as to the theory.

About the words used:
Actually there is a lot of mess because we use the same term: "hypnosis" for something that it is not well defined.
To be clear: personally I use the following different terms: as I speak of the states induced mainly through social compliance I use the word "suggestion", when I speak of the states induced by psychological techniques I use the word "hypnosis", and I use the word "hypnotism" when I speak of the states induced by a mix of physiological, psychological and energetic techniques, while magnetism and mesmerism is more appropriate for the energetic techniques. Hypno-magnetism is more appropriated for a mix of hypnotism and magnetism.
Finally, "Fascination" is the secret school we spoke on the site where we use only the gaze.
Obviously, when I speak to a wider audience and I need a word tyo be understood, I will many times use the word hypnosis as a generic one as it is widely known.

The History
There are two basic paths in the history of hypnosis: Mesmer and his followers that spoke of "magnetism", a concept that has certain points of contacts with actual "energetic healing" as it is also practiced in Ayurveda or in acupuncture, and Braid, that tried to find a strict rational way of explanation of hypnotic phenomena without using the concept of energy. Braid was very skeptical, created the word "hypnosis" but had never a big success rate. Mesmer instead was very succesful. Even the king was interested and hundreds of people went to his gatherings. The royal commission never denied the results of Mesmer, only said that they thought the theory was not true. But using the elements the Royal Commission spoke of, you don't have the same success rate. Few people know that Braid was less succesful as Mesmer (he got in his hypnosis only 3 people on 10 while Mesmer
had a success rate approaching 90-95%).
From a letter written by James Braid to one of his doctor friends of the time -
"I have to say that while I'm still in my belief that any
bright object when concentrated upon for some time can
induce hypnosis, by my means I have never achieved
anything so spectacular and deep as people who claim to
use animal magnetism do. They seem to get a host of
phenomena I cannot even barely touch and for that I have
no clear explanation..."
If we speak of therapy, there are many cases of results that you can get through energetic techniques. What we teach is the western tradition of these techniques. We found also that energetic techniques of 200 years ago were sometimes more evolved than what it is still practised today. an it is also true that it is rare to use only energetic techniques, and mixing contemporary hypnotherapy with energetic techniques many times is the best.


About therapeutical use and working on the symptoms,
there are two ways of working:
1 - bringing the person in the state of fascination without using words permit many times to brong him in a state of no-thought were the symptom vanishes. It is as a resetting of the human brain.
2 - sometimes we can use in connection with the former the mesmerian technique of working on the symptom. I can cite Rossi (1986) that says: "by asking the patient to experience the symptom (and sometimes worsen, as Erickson for exemple did), we are presumably turning on right hemispheric processes that have a readier access to state-dependent encoding of the problem". We can think that Mesmer intensifyed the experience of narrowed focus behind a problem (each problem is in reality a trance-state) and thereby lead the patient in an expanded state of comfort, relaxation, deep change through a paradoxical change similar to what is created by a Koan in Zen. Practically the symptom itself is used to create a more therapeutical natural state.
Anyway, I repeat: I only know the results I get, the theory are words.
For exemple we do this demonstration: in a group of 20 persons coming through our advertising, I do a little speech and after I ask them to come with their problems (aches, tinnitus, muscolar problems, anxieties etc...) and in a matter of 20-30 seconds of fascination each person I put away these problems. At this point the physical problems are normally ok even if some of them may require a second treatment after a week.
For the persons having psychological problems (anxieties, etc) I do also a simple technique of three minutes based on the light to further stimulate the visual cortex in finding new solutions. The day after 95 % of them are still ok.
Our master Erminio di Pisa arrived some time to do 300 persons in a day with this method.

Thanks for your attention. This is a long post but I will be happy to answer to detailed questions. I will be away for some time so please allow time for answering
PsiDroid
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Dr.blondins: thanks for your post.

I find myself agreeing with most of what your post suggest

especially the bits about dr.james braid
TonyB2009
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And I find myself disagreeing with much of what you wrote. It is just the sort of vague voodoo I would have expected after reading your ad.
Have ANY of your claims been tested by independant scientists?
I find the claim that you can stare at someone for thirty seconds and cure their tinnitus unbelievable. Has this claim been tested? If it has, can you tell us where the results were published, so we can read them for ourselves? Tony.
mindpunisher
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You wouldn't accept the peer medical research earlier on in the thread. Why would you need research for this?

I am not sticking up for the poster I know nothing about him. I have no idea if tinnitus can be cured this way or not.

But I do know it doesn't need a scientist to test it. If someone got relief from something that's good enough for me. Placebo. suggestion, energy whatever.

Adding a scientist into the mix is an additional element that influences the result no matter how much you believe something is objecive.

I don't need a scientist to preach to me if something has value or not. I will find out for myself.

For example as seriously bad sufferer of hayfever most of my life the only relilef I ever had during that time was a self hypnosis and NLP anchoring technique. Which worked for a period of 4 years then stopped working. It was much much much more effective than antihistamine which always made me feel sick drowsy and gave me headaches. On top of that it did nothing for my hayfever symptoms.

Yet my doctor insisted I get antihistamines. He told me it was impossible for the other techniques to work. Yet they did. Medicine made me worse FACT. Despite research.

Of course there is a market driven force and monetary gain behind most medicines. Something Ive always been suspiscious about.

I started to take strong vit c tablets for recurring cold and flu. Ive not had a cold or flu now for 10 years. Soon as I startedtaking vit c my hay fever reduced each year over a five year period. Now I don't get it at all.
PsiDroid
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Excerpt from a french book "Memoire sur la decouverte du magnetisme animal" [1779] later translated in english

Quote:
If he was going to avoid exacerbating public unrest what strategy could he use to discredit such a high profile and beloved a figure as Mesmer? This had to involve public humiliation and must be believed by all. Mesmer himself had perhaps provided the answer by alleging in writing that he had discovered a new force of physics. Mesmer believed he channeled this force thru his hands into his patients unblocking energy channels which when free flowing would eradicate disease. That was it the King must have realized. Prove that this force did not exist and by disassociation discredit Mesmer. If it could be proven that there was no new force of nature then it was not Mesmer that was healing the sick but something else within the person. Mesmer would instantly loose credibility. No one would care to pay attention to Mesmer any longer and the political/personal problem for the King would be solved. Who could prove this though? It would have to be someone of high public trust to counter the public rapture that Mesmer commanded. It would have to also be someone who was inclined to experiment.

Of course, the King should have known immediately who could help him. This was a person who was both a personal and political ally. Someone who owed the King for a great favor to both him personally and his mother country, the newly formed United States of America. The Treaty of Paris, in 1783 was just signed and ended the colonial rule of the British over the Americans. It was because the King of France ordered his best French general La Fayette to help George Washington that America may have defeated the British. In any case Benjamin Franklin was the Ambassador to France and the Kings pick to discredit Mesmer. Franklin also knew how to prove or disprove propositions about nature. This was after all the age historians would later describe as the Enlightenment. It was a period where skepticism was accepted and experiment and proof the rule. Benjamin Franklin was beloved by the world not just in Paris or France. He had saved thousands from an untimely death. Death by electrocution. Benjamin Franklin’s name was famous around the world for discovery of the lightning rod among other prodigious scientific discoveries. His achievements were many both in science and as one of the American founding fathers. Only one figure commanded more respect than Mesmer. Benjamin Franklin was both a personal friend of the Queen of France and beloved by the French people. The King established a Royal commission headed by Benjamin Franklin as well as other respected members of French Academia to investigate Mesmer’s claim to have discovered a new force in physics. In a brilliant stroke of political maneuvering the King had Mesmer in his cross hairs.


we know that tonyb is the only luciferian "angel" here and that he alone hold the keys of the universal truth: he alone know whats wrong or right; whats real and whats fake .....

but from this excerpt seems that both the king and Franklin had their own agendas and bias to discredit Mesmer which aside for his discovery [or re-discovery] of animal magnetism was also a medical doctor who got some envy from his peers because he cured a lot of things contemporary doctors weren't able to
TonyB2009
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On 2009-10-26 11:26, PsiDroid wrote:
but from this excerpt seems that both the king and Franklin had their own agendas and bias to discredit Mesmer which aside for his discovery [or re-discovery] of animal magnetism was also a medical doctor who got some envy from his peers because he cured a lot of things contemporary doctors weren't able to


Mesmer did not discover, or rediscover, animal magnitism, because there is no such thing. Just as there is no luminiferous ether, no ecto-plasm, and no tooth fairy.

You seem to do a lot of sniping for a man who has no ammunition.
bobser
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I think this is another thread that would be worthwhile restarting since once again we're back in the playground. The subject matter is actually quite interesting, if only from the aspect that if it were possibly true, then it would be mind blowing. But the blurb:
Quote:
To make animal magnetism work you must
1 - accept completely the idea of fluidism and supernatural.
2 - not rely on words, but on inner thought
3 - connect yourself to the power of Nature and rediscover your natural power


does kinda' makes one think: well if they could do that, surely I would have heard about it by now huh? Or is it just me?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
PsiDroid
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[quote]On 2009-10-26 18:45, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-26 11:26, PsiDroid wrote:
but from this excerpt seems that both the king and Franklin had their own agendas and bias to discredit Mesmer which aside for his discovery [or re-discovery] of animal magnetism was also a medical doctor who got some envy from his peers because he cured a lot of things contemporary doctors weren't able to


Quote:
Mesmer did not discover, or rediscover, animal magnitism, because there is no such thing. Just as there is no luminiferous ether, no ecto-plasm, and no tooth fairy.

You seem to do a lot of sniping for a man who has no ammunition.


of course I do: but very little if compared to your sniping, you are still the undefeated master at that

and the more you insist on wanting others to believe your truth the more I think is easier that animal magnetism exist than the fact you have a brain tonyb
TonyB2009
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PsyDroid, argueing with you would be like taking a machine gun to a gnat, as an Irish politician famously remarked about one of his opponents.
Frankly its not worth the effort. When you catch up to the twenty first century, come back to us. Tony.
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