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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
Quote: On 2009-11-02 22:17, KirkG wrote:
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-30 03:28, Andrew Musgrave wrote: Andrew, What I wrote doesn't preclude that possibility. I only suggested that the focus should be on the audience's needs: Quote:
Any similarity between the magic you enjoy doing, and the magic your audiences enjoy watching is purely coincidental. |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-03 02:27, wsduncan wrote: Well, "coincidental" in this context seems to suggest that it makes no difference whether or not the performer likes the routine, so long as the audience's needs are met. What I'm suggesting is that it's possible for an audience to be predisposed positively to a given work of art based solely upon the performer's affection for it. They might have their faith shattered, of course, or they might like it more than they normally would, or they might not re-evaluate it differently at all. I'm just trying to say that a performer's affection for a routine has the potential to affect the audience's evaluation of that same routine, with that affection being a more-than-coincidental factor.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
I'm just trying to say that a performer's affection for a routine has the potential to affect the audience's evaluation of that same routine, with that affection being a more-than-coincidental factor. Absolutely! As in any form of communication, the way the performer projects himself is more import than the trick or method. If you are not enthusiastic about an effect why should the audience care? If your passion for magic itself does not come across, how will you kindle it in a spectator? Entertainment doesn't have to mean catering to imangined whims of the audience. Of course, that means there must be more to magic that just entertainment. Isn't there? Maybe performing magic will become like peep-shows where a spectator will only view the tricks they already know, and any new effect will be censored. Just record all of your effects on video, carry a laptop and a menu of tricks and let the spectator decide what they want to see. This would certainly end the "do it again" discussion. Drop in a buck and watch it as many times as your like.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Re:
Quote:
As in any form of communication, the way the performer projects himself is more import than the trick or method. in magic, that "trick" or "method" is not usually supposed to be present in the communication - it is most often supposed to stay backstage and merely serve to project the message rather than as the message. We don't stop TV shows to admire the cameras... usually. Do we stop movies for someone to tell us about the paint used on the movie screen to help reflect the most light?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Now, Jonathan, you know that "trick" and "method" also includes object, prop, body parts, clothing, motions, etc. -- all of which are less important than "who the performer is perceived to be" by the spectator. Taking a line out of context hardly attempts to answer the questions asked.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
Visually, Kenner's routine is simpler to watch and I think it would have more impact on a spectator.
I like it, but it's too rich for my blood. One other thing to note. The Kenner video just plain looks better. Chris is better lit and is framed tighter. His moves are slow and deliberate. And all looks very fair. As a viewer, you feel like you're standing right there with him. It's one of the better demo videos I've seen in a while. I've grown so tired of all the jerky hand held camera video demos showing way too many spectator reactions and very little of the actual magic.
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Yeah I hear you mo, that's the difference between the coffee & donut cart on the street corner and the many Starbuck's Cafés here in NYC. Still they both get their allotment of customers daily that like what they sell for the prices they sell it in what they personally get out of it. And I truly doubt that any of these customers feel less-than when they finish their cup of coffee, no matter where they got it from or at what price.
Granted the difference in prices does change the decor a bit but the coffee is up to the taste of the buyer and perhaps his pocketbook as well along with a few other little incidentals. Funny, both are there every day making people happy on their way to work and that choice is a good thing IMHO. Oh and I happen to love Starbuck's coffee but I buy from the cart everyday because it's good coffee and absolutely excellent for the price, all things considered. Yeah it may not be air conditioned or have pretty pictures on the wall or fancy cups or fancy names and 177 flavors but I'm glad I tried it as it's darn good coffee. I would always hope that people give things a try on their own to experience for themselves. When they do they usually learn something more than they thought they would learn either-which-way about either-which-way. Great discussion here.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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taiga Veteran user Chicoutimi, Qc 317 Posts |
The kurtz or Kenner published method are best.
If you're willing to spend "a few bucks" U3F is the investment, period. (My favorite BTW) |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-03 05:45, funsway wrote: I wouldn't go so far as to say that at all. When we communicate anything, we are offering multiple things for the receiver to evaluate. Some will focus upon style, others content, still others combinations of the two, still others nuances within the two, still others the football game on the television behind the communicator, etc. I don't believe that just because a performer obviously likes a trick, the audience will automatically be predisposed to liking it 100% of the time. I do believe it's possible that this can happen sometimes. In my previous example regarding Seth Macfarlane, I was excited to learn what specific joke on his own show had tickled him so much. That said, there are other jokes on the show that I'm happy to watch, and I've got no idea what Macfarlane thinks of them.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-03 15:14, taiga wrote: Strong statements there, offered without qualification or context. What specifically do you like about the published Kenner and Kurtz routines? If you do any version in performance for real people what have you found works best for you and how so? Quote:
On 2009-11-03 11:31, funsway wrote: A sleight does not motivate a hand-to-hand transfer. That's a shift from method to effect. Maybe useful to think of a theater show - as seen from backstage in the wings (method) or out in the audience (effect).
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-02 22:51, rannie wrote: Looking forward to it my friend. |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
So this thing costs 800 smackers; has anyone here laid out the cash for it yet?
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
I have it - love it, fantastic gaff with lots of potential!
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taiga Veteran user Chicoutimi, Qc 317 Posts |
First let me thank you Jonathan for bringing me back on track. I presume thhat my poor english make me write the shortest way possible without any nuances. I'll do my best to explain what I meant.
I would say that the Kenner's routine offers me enough freedom of acting with the peoples for whom I perform (mainly restaurants and walk around). No complicate plot to follow just plain visual fun. Since I learn this routine (1993), I have change it a bit (the second coin in particular) but in essence the routine is unchanged. The Kurtz routine is visual and amazing but unfortunately, very hard to do and I couldn't perform it as often as I wanted due to the restrictive angles in the body of the routine itself. Finally, the U3F, is my main workhorse now. It's clean and... magic! I love this set sooo much, I have it on me almost all the time. I even did that to students in highschools where I work and they react strongly every time, it's that good. And when someone request me to do the "trick-where-the-coins-moves-without-being-seen" I said that I can't because I don't have my coins with me, THEN I ask for three "one dollar" or "two dollars" (here in Canada we have those coins, a benediction for us coins workers) and I do the Kenner routine. Here, one routine makes the other stronger. This is why I like so much those routines. I hope I have been able to explain my personal view that was not so clear before. Thank for asking jonathan! |
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Double J Veteran user 331 Posts |
Manola Tejeda has one of the best, if not thee best, presentations and handlings of a non-gimmicked 3fly routine around. It is Clear, Direct and his hands are shown wide open on each phase. I was one of the lucky few who had the chance to see him perform it. Fantastic! Too bad he doesn't post on this forum any longer.
$800.00 for a gaffed set of coins... ARE YOU KIDDING ME! I say if you must use a gaff. Practice, and perfect, a shelled routine. Far less money and it will bring out huge reactions from spectators. |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Double J you are right on about Mano. He has some serious chops, I know he is or is trying to release a dvd on coins.perhpas marion can tell you he is from the east coast,
Mano's three fly is amazing and he only uses three coins no extras.I have seen manos promo demo,His techniques are for the serious coin worker for sure. Kirk is a friend of mine from the west coast he does some sweet stuff with three fly I have seen kirk perform and he did it almost surrounded. for myself I am not a big fan of three fly this is why I never do it for me it's a puzzle ,however done smoothly and with grace it is a thing of beauty. |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
The Godfather and Double J here are right, Mano is the man. The guy is amazing and I have seen him do his 3 Fly right up close and it is a thing of beauty. Mano is a very special coin mechanic and on top of that he is a great guy. Miss him around here and the forum is less without his words and advanced ideas on magic.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Double J Veteran user 331 Posts |
Vinny,
I've got to admit that I wasn't a big fan of 3fly either, that is, until I saw Mano perform his own version. The thing that turned me off in the past was the look of the magician seemingly hiding coins in their hands. It never looked magical to me, but it also never looked like a puzzle either. Plain and simple, it just looked like coins were being hidden in their hands. In contrast, Mano's version is pure magic. There is no place for the spectator to go, all roads are blocked. Throughout the routine they only see 3 coins, at his fingertips, with open hand displays along the way. The handling is smooth, the presentation entertaining and to top it off, Mano's personality is engaging. Everything you would want, and more in a magical effect. |
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Rizzo Inner circle East Coast 3346 Posts |
Why does Mano no longer "visit" the Café?
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