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mindpunisher
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On 2009-11-04 18:49, TonyB2009 wrote:
Hi Mindpunisher. I don't accept evidence that is presented out of context - such as your claim on another thread that modern medicine was the leading cause of death in America. You completely ignored the fact that the people who were using doctors were SICK TO BEGIN WITH. When you ignore the context your argument becomes meaningless.
I do believe that people stick their hands together for you. I believe the man who was stuck to a chair for a day after Derren Brown's stunt was playing along for attention. You are being very naive if you believe there is anything more to it than that.
And sheeps brains are a delicacy in the middle-east. As anyone who has eaten them will tell you, they are delicious. And sheeps heads do not stink if they are cooked correctly.
I am glad to have been able to clear up so many things for you. If you need any further information don't be afraid to ask. Tony.


Tony go back to the original thread and read the bloody research. It was NOT out of context. If someone needs their toe nails cut because its starting to curl and hurt you don't saw off the toe. Which is more or less what some of the research is saying.

Stoning women removing hands suicide bombing and public hanging are also specialities of the Middle East. I think that sort of sums up the place "lost in the dark ages". Not the kind of place to be used as a reference for such a forward thinking guy like you I would've thought? But then again you really aren't the guy you think you are or trying to potray on here. That research was not out of context. And it was NOT my assertion it was the assertion of well established researchers and govermant agencies within the medical field.

I can only lead a horse to water but unfortunately I cannot make an A-ss drink.

also an interesting read:

>>>>BL: It has been statistically established that one third of all medical healings (including surgery) are derived from the placebo effect as opposed to intervention.

This means if someone has an illness and takes a sugar pill under the assumption that it’s a prescribed drug designed to cure the condition, a healing will occur one third of the time.

This is a scientifically established fact, which is taught in medical school and what it says is that perception and belief can instigate healing that occurs innately by the body. We have all been endowed with an innate healing ability that has been with us since the evolution of our species but from the age of six our brain patterns alter, we start acquiring perceptions about who we are in the world and in the majority of cases our conditioning over-rides this natural ability.<<<<<


If you want to read the whole article http://www.brucelipton.com/biology-of-be......h-matter

Now Tony show me the research that proves him wrong? I had heard of the placebo effect being one third and widely accepted within the medical field. Now this Doctor who attended medical achool just confirmed it. Yet you won't listen to reason. You make up your own little world. Or maybe he just wrote that article to please me specifically?
TonyB2009
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Mindpunisher, you are factually incorrect. The placebo effect, while real, does not account for a third of medical successes. The actual figure is far smaller than that. All the research confirms this.
And saying that medical intervention is the biggest cause of death is about as meaningful as saying that marriage is the leading cause of divorce.
I am not rejecting your research, just your flawed interpretation of it.
By the way I am familiar with Bruce Lipton and his thinking, and have read the article you pointed us to. Pure new-age junk. You do realise he is not a medical doctor? He is not held in high regard among peers in his own area of expertise, and once he moves beyond his limited expertise his claims and ideas become increasingly bizarre and unrelated to the real world.
If you can't do better than this, bow out now with your dignity intact.
Quoting Bruce Lipton in a serious debate is clutching at straws. Tony.
Anthony Jacquin
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Indeed, quoting Lipton in the face of the Cochrane report. LOL. Go meta MP, the guy is another quantum quack.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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Now on Kindle and Audible!
mindpunisher
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Show me "ALL" of the research Tony. I don't give you my interpretation of any research . All the words were cut and pasted from the researchers. I have read somewhere and saw on a tv documentry many moons ago that around a third of all medicine is placebo based upon medical research.

However I never ever said that research was the truth one way or another. It is a scientific "viewpoint" nothing more. Research results change with the wind depending who is doing it. But the fact that you have been drawn into making a decision or take a side based on research is the downfall of your credibility. In fact in case you haven't noticed your stuck in a double bind. No matter which way you jump you are discredited.


Anthony how can you talk about quacks when your main function in the hypnosis world is to breed untrained hypnotists to "attack" members in the street. The guy has a Phd he is an academic. If this guy is a quack you are a beak short of a duck. You don't have any credibility compared to him. In fact you don't have any credibility at all apart from teenagers and magi's who buy your products and manage to make someone look silly in dangerous situations with inadequate training.

I think I know who I would place my bets with on this one.

Quack quack!
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On 2009-11-05 06:46, mindpunisher wrote:
Anthony how can you talk about quacks when your main function in the hypnosis world is to breed untrained hypnotists to "attack" members in the street.


The vast majority of people who choose to train with me are mature professional performers. There is no army of unethical teens looking to do harm. Not outside of your head anyway. I do not teach people to attack anyone. I am interested in people being trained well and deliver on that.

So what he has a Phd. Everything Lipton published after 1985 is generally regarded as new age crackpot fluff. The guy looked into his petri dish, saw something move and lost it.

You pattern of quote something as if it is fact, see it rebuffed then claim you never really believed it anyway and just wanted to make a pointless point is becoming predictable.

Anthony
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
TonyB2009
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Mindpunisher I corrected you before when you tried to claim that quantum physics supported some view or other of yours. You had no understanding of quantum physics, and now you are demonstrating a similar expertise in medicine. Cutting and pasting from the internet is not research. Quoting Lipton as an authority is a further demonstration of your lack of understanding.

I am sorry to put it so bluntly, but life is to short to slowly lead you to the right path. I am not a teacher, and in areas you tend to spout on about you have a huge amount to learn. That is why I didn't bother replying in detail to your medical posts, and why I am not going to rise to you on this occasion too.
I would like to say keep taking the tablets, but as you would probably be taking placebos there is no point.

On a final note, you give out about guys like myself doing shows without formal training, then you give out about guys like Anthony providing training. Make up your mind.

By the way, I am working through The Mancurian Approach and am enjoying it thoroughly. I am also learning things. I am sure that news will come as a bit of a disappointment to you, but there you are. So far it is a very good product. Tony.
Rotten
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MP. I learned what I said through experience. I am a nonbeliever of religion but would never try to convince someone that what they believe is false. And if I were religious I wouldn't be trying to save non believers.

I'm shocked this thread is even going on in a forum that is dedicated to Hypnosis. "Shocked" might not be the right word. Disgusted.

Everyone has the right to their own belief. I think dropping this subject would be the best for everyone.
Slim King
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It will always be this way. Non-believers have become Evangelicals Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
mindpunisher
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Tony you didn't correct me you said it was false. But so much of what you say is tripe. If you want to correct me go ahead correct me. Show me the research you are so fond of show me the proof. I will show you research that says different. I have shown you research that opposes some of the misguided views that you have and you refute it without any reason so give me your reason. You have about as much credibility as Rollex made in tiawan. Only you seem to believe you are worth listening to. Most of us have you well figured out now.

So go on correct me.

Anthony doesn't provide safe training for the street. The majority read his although well written but very limited book which encourages "attacks" on members of the public in public places without training. I know Tony you would constitute that as training because it is equal to a phd compared to what you did before starting shows. But none the less it isn't training.

Rotten I have no intention of changing anybody's beliefs - my only intention is to show rediculous and harmful notions for what they are. Readers of these threads can make up their own minds supposing they have one. For some even a half would be a good start.

Quote:
On 2009-11-05 12:47, Rotten wrote:
MP. I learned what I said through experience. I am a nonbeliever of religion but would never try to convince someone that what they believe is false. And if I were religious I wouldn't be trying to save non believers.

I'm shocked this thread is even going on in a forum that is dedicated to Hypnosis. "Shocked" might not be the right word. Disgusted.

Everyone has the right to their own belief. I think dropping this subject would be the best for everyone.


I find your post highly amusing. The ones that go on here most about changing beliefs and talk about scientific credibility have the least credibility of them all.

This IS a forum about hypnosis why would anyone come on here and try and prove it doesn't exist? The only thing Tony should correct is his fixed limited thought patterns that are making him look more and more silly as time passes.

For someone who goes on about science and research he is probably the last one on here I would give much credibility to.
Rotten
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I'm pleased that I could amuse you. That's the reason I post.

Seeing as I am new to this particular forum and I make my living as a variety comic I do not know any of you. (Except for psychic samurai)

I have seen/worked with over 2 dozen hypnosis shows. I enjoyed one. In Feb. I am going to be certified by that "one" as I am suffering physical injuries and wonder how long I'll be able to demonstrate my mad skills with humor. I want to entertain forever, it's all I know. Stage hypnosis I could do till retirement. So I poked my head in here and not the sideshow forum as usual. Social compliance, I read. I wonder what that means? I have seen very little use of social compliance in this topic.

I really hoped to find a bunch of witty and entertaining fellas discussing hypnosis.
TonyB2009
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I am sorry that this is proving to be a rotten introduction to this forum. Normally we are witty and urbane, but occasionally we get together on this forum, and that goes out the window.
But sometimes we can pleasently swap experiences and help each other. I have learnt a lot here.

So much for the veneer of urbanity. Now I must address Mindpunisher.
You have lectured us on quantum physics. You knew nothing about the subject.
Then you lectured us on medicine. You knew nothing about the subject.
Now you are quoting a hippy cell biologist. Again you know nothing about the subject.
Three strikes and you're out. Go home and read a book or two, and this time try to understand them.

You asked: This IS a forum about hypnosis why would anyone come on here and try and prove it doesn't exist?

I have no answer for this question. I have never come on this forum to prove anything. All the posts questioning hypnosis originated from others. I merely, like everyone else, give my views. When I know nothing (often the case) I keep my mouth shut. There's a lesson there.

Finally, Rotten, welcome to the battle zone. There are several useful threads here. From the tone of your post you are soon facing physical challenges (I would love if I am picking up that wrong). You will find hypnosis a great show to do. If you are a good entertainer and have confidence in yourself, you will have no problem pulling it off. I hope it is a great success for you.
Tony.
Slim King
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So let me get this straight ... IS HYPNOTISM REAL IF THE HYPNOTIST ISN'T?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Rotten
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Psychic Sam,

What I gather is there is several pools of thought on this subject. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and if it works for them then that's swell. I know chiropractors who think they can cure cancer and other's that just believe in the alignment of the spine. Humans, no two are alike. I love that about us.
Hostile18
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If anyone's interested in a good introductory outline of different theories of hypnosis then I would recommend 'Trancework' by Michael Yapko.

For those who are knew to all this, beware of those who have the 'right answer'. There are some complex issues here, and whilst you can be successful with a narrow viewpoint, it does mean you'll miss out. Explore at your leisure.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-11-05 16:39, TonyB2009 wrote:
I am sorry that this is proving to be a rotten introduction to this forum. Normally we are witty and urbane, but occasionally we get together on this forum, and that goes out the window.
But sometimes we can pleasently swap experiences and help each other. I have learnt a lot here.

So much for the veneer of urbanity. Now I must address Mindpunisher.
You have lectured us on quantum physics. You knew nothing about the subject.
Then you lectured us on medicine. You knew nothing about the subject.
Now you are quoting a hippy cell biologist. Again you know nothing about the subject.
Three strikes and you're out. Go home and read a book or two, and this time try to understand them.

You asked: This IS a forum about hypnosis why would anyone come on here and try and prove it doesn't exist?

I have no answer for this question. I have never come on this forum to prove anything. All the posts questioning hypnosis originated from others. I merely, like everyone else, give my views. When I know nothing (often the case) I keep my mouth shut. There's a lesson there.

Finally, Rotten, welcome to the battle zone. There are several useful threads here. From the tone of your post you are soon facing physical challenges (I would love if I am picking up that wrong). You will find hypnosis a great show to do. If you are a good entertainer and have confidence in yourself, you will have no problem pulling it off. I hope it is a great success for you.
Tony.


Tony the only person on this forum who has lectured anybody is you. I provided information from expert sources on these subjects. I have also stated that I believe all of these experts are just "a view point". I have always said the "reality" is always bigger than one view point.

You on the otherhand have consistently claimed your piont of view IS THE ONLY ONE.
And even when provided with information from experts (NOT ME) you still say you are right. You also say regularly on here everyone else is deluded or stuck in the dark ages.

Yet you offer NO information, NO proof NO research. In fact you haven't offered anything apart from opportunities to make you look silly which of course we all have enjoyed and thank you for.

But the funniest of all is you can't even see how many times you've been discredited.

Anything I have put forward was not my information. It came from expert sources. I have not lectured anyone. Anyone can believe what they want. Its you who thinks your cockeyed veiw of reality is the only one. Even when its obviously not shared by the highly esteemed research you go on about.
PsiDroid
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Sorry mindpunisher but did you expect any better coming from tonyb ??

don't you know yet that he is the almighty omniscient tony ?? the man who teaches gods how to think and behave ??


lol
Slim King
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If two more people agree I will read Trancework ... OK (I hate to read) Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-11-04 20:39, Psychic Samurai wrote:
OK ... So HYPNOTISM isn't REAL but the HYPNOTIST IS? (But he just can't really hypnotize anyone..... for real)
Is that it?

HELP ME UNDERSTAND!!!!!

This sucks. You ask an honest question and you get stuck in the middle of a virtual measuring contest.

Some facts to ponder. Well nobody knows for certain what anyone is proposing to be FACTS. They are inturpretations of opinions.

The thing is this though, and it is why I stay out of these "semantic debates". And trust me this is what they are. If it is real or if it is not real missed the point. It will not change the way a show is done one way or the other. If it is real or fake or whatever, it does not matter.

Mostly it is just guys trying to be the smartest guys in the room and it is pointless. So I simply encourage you to read as much as possible on each side of the debate and come to the conclusion which best suits your needs. I mean absolutes are tough to deal in. I mean if it is "fake" for lack of a better term, then every participant is simply playing along. If they are experiencing "something" then there ya go, SOMETHING is happening.

To me it is like going to see a wrestling match from the WWE. If you are sitting there asking if it is real or not, you are missing the point of why they are putting on the show in the first place.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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First of all we aren't sitting watching a hypnosis show as a punter. We are in the business should at least have a certain level of knowledge and experience Secondly I think that is a very poor comparison. Hypnosis has a lot of research that "proves" it exists as well as research that "proves" it doesn't. And by exist we mean that hypnotic trance does exist. Some thoughts around hypnosis state that we are continuously in trance and swap one trance for another.

Some of the theories around social compliance state that in certain situations the brain doesn't process information and responds automatically with little conscious control.

Neither say that people just go along with things. I think both are valid and belong together rather than apart. They are both explanations and theories that give some insight into what is happening. And again I believe that reality is always bigger than one viewpoint or even all viewpoints collectively.

And the "argument" was not one of semantics. It was more to do with pulling apart a viewpoint that believes the are right while everybody else was wrong.

But you've missed a lot since you haven't been around for a while...
Dannydoyle
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Actually, not really. It seems the same idiotic arguements as ever LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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