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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » The Godfather's, "Unfaithful Force" (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jay Mahon
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Well,
I have to agree with Ben. But it seems that Vinny openly admits his ideas are not new. I suppose one of the problems I face is with naming these moves that aren't Vinny's. I'm sure we have all seen the youtube video of that guy doing a LOT of stuff from the Earnest Earick book. He says this is stuff from the Earick book then does it beautifully. He's not trying to sell it and I am sure he has changed small things, but he claims its not his just him performing someone else's moves and tricks. There is nothing wrong with that.

But to republish existing material without any noticeable difference, renaming it to look like your original idea and selling it... That doesn't add up to me. I think many on this forum are on the same page, and this is why Vinny often gets flack from members here.

J
vinsmagic
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Ben and Jim both you guys are royal *****, I never claimed anything was mine, I give my credits on my site. Ask any one who is a member, I changed the name so magicians would not know it's the hop ..., so get your facts straight.
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Jay Mahon
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You claim things you put up on your site are original. Am I wrong? Does that not imply it is yours. If you come up with something original it's considered yours...

If you don't tell magicians what it is and offer it for sale to trick them into not knowing what is your intention? Are you trying to fool them into purchasing something they might already know because you do it well? I suppose I could do a pass well, call it "On the Up and Up" control and sell it. But that would be wrong. Especially if people got fooled then realized they already knew what I was doing but were fooled by the name hoping for a new method. It had a new name...

J
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If you were not so cheap and spent the money for my all access you would see the control is not mine and I give proper crediting to Harry Lorayne, again the move is not mine.

The idea of the force is mine that I came up with independently as far as I know and I explain this. If this is Marlo's or anyone else's idea, I would gladly give the proper credit. And I stated I never seen anyone use it as a force and I did try to find it but no results. I even contacted Bill Goodwin at the Magic Castle Library to see if he could help (he is the librarian).
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Ben Train
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Quote:
On 2009-11-04 16:35, vinsmagic wrote:
Ben and Jim both you guys are royal *****, I never claimed anything was mine, I give my credits on my site. Ask any one who is a member, I changed the name so magicians would not know it's the hop ..., so get your facts straight.

Vinny,

Let me get my facts straight.

1. You are selling something.
2. You know it's not yours (the move or the application)
3. You give credit to Harry.
4. You changed the name.

Is this correct?
Ben
p.s.
I cannot believe that people still cannot understand that there is a distinction between their work and them as a person. Vinny, nowhere did I attack you, and I am offended by your comment. I have always been respectful and kind to you as a person. I simply don't like what you are doing here. I'm deeply upset by your comments.
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Turk
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Alright, I'm sorry but..I'm confused.

Who exactly invented the "hop" move that Vinny is being criticized for "stealing"--or, at the very least, for not crediting?

Some say Marlo; some say Harry Lorayne; some say it is an old move and goes back to the tables (what ever that means).

It would certainly be helpful if a person (who suggests a move was invented earlier) would give the precise primary source reference so that others can verify the claim as accurate (at least as to that date in time of the alleged creation). Right now, all we have are general anecdotal assertions with no way of being able to easily verify the claims. And, if the move is an "old table move" that goes back to the old-time gamblers, then what? Who get proper credit then?

Additionally, there are some moves so well known and so well used that crediting is no longer expected to be given--even if known. Is the "hop" move now in that category?

Are we now engaged in a "how many angels are currently dancing on the head of a pin" type of argument or distinction?

Before releasing this video, Vinny sent the effect out to a number of very knowlegeable card magicians for comments and crediting references. It was one of them who advised Vinny that the move in question was a variation of "Harry Loraynes's "hop" move". (Hence, Vinny's credit to Harry Lorayne for the move.) In addition, Vinny iscontending that he changed the move slightly (no pun intended) both by using the move as a force andby adding the "stuck out card" as a convincer. Hence, in totality, since Vinny added a variation to the move, he called it "The Unfaithful Force" and he did this in the same breath in which he credited Harry Lorayne for the "hop" move.

Instead of concentrating on the video that Vinny released and which Harry Lorayne highly praised (I think he might have even said it fooled him), are we now engaged in a "same-o same-o" verbal pi**ing contests by some of the perennial "your move is not original" chronic complainers who invent nothing but are quick to try to diminish the contribution of others here on the Café. I dunno; sometimes it certainly seems so. In any event, life goes on.

In sum, does anyone actually know the actual original first use of the "hop" move? Is so, please give a primary source citation to substantiate your claim (i.e., book and page number or name of video, etc.) so that your claim can be seriously evaluated.

Additionally, is the "hop" move one of those moves that is so widely known and performed by knowledgeable magicians that no citation is reasonably to be expected.

Just, IMHO; your mileage may vary.

Thank you all.

Mike

P.S. It would also be helpful to have all those that are knocking the product state whether or not they are a subsciber of Vinny's All Access program and have seen the entire video first hand or whether or not they are going from hearsay information. I'd at least like to have the confidence in knowing that any such complainer has actually viewed the entire video. Such knowledge allows me to give greater weight to his claim(s).
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Eschew obfuscation.
Ben Train
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Quote:
On 2009-11-04 18:48, Turk wrote:

Before releasing this video, Vinny sent the effect out to a number of very knowledgeable card magicians for comments and crediting references. It was one of them who advised Vinny that the move in question was a variation of "Harry Loraynes's "hop" move". (Hence, Vinny's credit to Harry Lorayne for the move.) In addition, Vinny is contending that he changed the move slightly (no pun intended) both by using the move as a force andby adding the "stuck out card" as a convincer. Hence, in totality, since Vinny added a variation to the move, he called it "The Unfaithful Force" and he did this in the same breath in which he credited Harry Lorayne for the "hop" move.

I didn't fault him for this- I think that's great. He came up with something, got help with the research and then gave credits appropriately, then released it. So far, so what?

Well, all that would be fine if his move was sufficiently different from other published versions. And, for a time, he thought it was. Now people have let him know that he missed something and he should check out the source. Rather then taking down the video until he was able to confirm the validity of these sources he started insulting people. When I explained, quite politely, what the problem was he told me I was an ***.

His response to the situation is the problem- I wasn't talking about the actual move. I hope that clarifies things.

Ben
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vinsmagic
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Where is the move used as a force ??? I GAVE PROPER CRFERDIT TO HARRY LORAYNE WHAT MORE DO YOU WAANt.. my all accesss runs for one year and the hop is just part of what I teach to the subscribers but how would you know you don,t subscribe you just make accusations . I also teach the Hop to force a several cards at once,
\ evey one of my posts you are on it like dog **** trying to put my work down.
the hop is tought on Harrys video and for all to use .
I contacted many well know magicians that subscribe to the Café showing them my work
you through out Marlo's Name ( thank you marlo) big deaL SHOW WME WHERE HE USED THE HOP AS A FORCE AND SHOW ME WHERE HE CREATED IT THEN I WILL TAKE THE DEMO DOWN


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Ben Train
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Vinny,

People gave you the name of the source. YOU have to go out and get it. If it turns out the source they provided doesn't have the move in question, or if it's still sufficiently different, then you're in the gold.

As far as I'm concerned I have nothing more to say and I'm done with this thread (unless someone forces me to come back and say something else).

Do whatever the hell you want.
Ben
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Jack of Spades
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In fairness to Vinny here, it seems to me that he is putting forward an application of the hop that he genuinely thinks has not been done before. If so, I think we have to say "fair play" to him. (I actually really like the move!). Do we know for sure if anyone has previously published such an application? If not, then it's a little premature to be harsh with Vinny. I think (hope) he would change the offering if he found out that other credits were required. I feel that Vinny is being a little picked upon here... unjustly? If I'm wrong, or have missed something, I'll happily be put right on this.
Ben Train
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Quote:
On 2009-11-04 19:36, Jack of Spades wrote:
In fairness to Vinny here, it seems to me that he is putting forward an application of the hop that he genuinely thinks has not been done before. If so, I think we have to say "fair play" to him. (I actually really like the move!). Do we know for sure if anyone has previously published such an application? If not, then it's a little premature to be harsh with Vinny. I think (hope) he would change the offering if he found out that other credits were required. I feel that Vinny is being a little picked upon here... unjustly? If I'm wrong, I'll accept it.


Page one of this thread mentions the skinner dvd, and other sources were also mentioned. The question is- has vinny looked at them yet?

Well, my "I'm done with this thread" stance didn't last long!

Ben
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vinsmagic
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Jack that is my point as I stated I had never seen the hop used as a force and I did my best to find out I came up with nothing, if it is published of course I will be very happy to give proper crediting.
I also teach the hop move using it as a multiple force or mult control with the cards. I g ive the crediting on all access not in the performance
I was atacked saying it was not mine I never claimed it was
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Open Traveller
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Guys,

I didn't mean to start all this. I mentioned that the idea of using the hop as a force had been done because I thought Vinny and others would like to know. That was the end of that, in my mind. I made no claim that his use of the move was poor, shouldn't be sold, needs to be pulled or anything like that. I just assumed that someone would like to know, particularly in light of Marion's initial hype of the move, that it's not really new.

I don't remember anyone in this thread saying that Skinner did the hop as a force. Only that he did the hop, and specifically in the context of Harry Lorayne's routine with it. All I put forth is that this idea (of using the hop as a force) was kicked around. I don't know that it's ever been published.

Back then, the idea was bandied about, but no one thought that much about it. No one rushed to print. No one thought of selling it or lecturing on it. It was just another idea in an exciting time when ideas were continually being kicked around. This is a different era. Maybe its time has come. If Vinny wants to put it out, maybe it's okay that he does. I've certainly never suggested otherwise.

Thanks.
rockthemike
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*pats Vinny on the back
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vinsmagic
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Train I see you just read about magic try performing some time, you might learn something, instead of receiting others.
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Double J
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I've seen 'The Hop' performed by Harry and originally thought it was a great move... Then a friend showed me a variation that I liked even better. This is the first time I've seen it done as a force and I thought it was great.

Vinny, it was good thinking on your part to come up with that force. Harry Lorayne doesn't seem to have a problem with it, in fact, He's praising you for it. Harry's Great!

The way I see it, you've went further than most in trying to find out if it was already published. I say, leave it up, share it, until someone proves otherwise. Till then, I'll know it as (Vinny Marini's 'Unfaithful Force' ).
Ben Train
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OT

It has no baring on my assessment of how Vinny handled the situation. I didn't say that those sources DID or DID NOT have the move on it. I didn't say the move was or wasn't Vinny's. I said that Vinny was informed about other sources and rather then do the mature, responsible thing and check them out he began slinging insults.

It blows my mind.

And, the crazy thing is, if the move ISN'T on the sources listed, then he could have checked them (in less time it took to post rude comments on here), would have confirmed the idea IS his, and there wouldn't have been any problems.

Like I said- mind blowing.

Ben
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gdw
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I am so lost. What is Ben being attacked for?
Also, where is the video of this. I did not see it on the site.

As I have not seen it I don't know how it is used, but it was mentioned that vinny was using the idea of a card being jogged I believe. Any how, might be irrelevant, but Joel givens used a jogged card in conjunction with the hop as a convincer.


Posted: Nov 4, 2009 10:03pm
---------------------------------
Never mind, I saw it now. The jogging I mentioned is nothing like this, though it is a great add on for using the hop as a control. If any one's interested in that, it's in the book Session, the magic of Joel Givens by Josh Jay.


As for Vinny's move, I have not seen the hop used like that, I like the idea. If it HAS been done before, and you have been pointed in the right direction to find out, it is definitely your responsibility to find out.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

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vinsmagic
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I tried and found nothing I this anoys anyone about the crediting please I insist all of you to search . I did my part I gave proper crediting as far as I know that's it.
check out jack carpenter on you tube he gives harry lorayne and me credit for the hop then he even made it better than my version and harrys
.
Harry lorayne doeen't even know where the move came from he used it as a one card pass ,i am using it as a force
case closed until some one tells me different.
in the mean time get my all access ypou know it all might learn something new
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TomasB
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Ernesto has some incredible finesses on it as a download on Vanishing Inc:

http://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-d......yvideo=1

In the download he also shows how he uses it as a _force_. Ernesto's additions creates such a stunning optical illusion.

/Tomas
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