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fireperformer911 Special user 547 Posts |
Here is the question.
Why is it that if a magician copies Dai Vernon or Tommy Wonders cup and ball routine it is a bit of a tribute to a Master and when a Magician copies Gazzo's cup and ball routine people refer to him in a negative way (Gazzo Clone)? Gazzo is a master! Before you say too many Street performers are doing his routine there are twice as many Nun's in the world as street performers (less yet street magicans) and how many Nuns have you seen in last 12 years? |
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cairo Elite user 406 Posts |
When Vernon or Wonder routines are done the performer's own personality shines through because he usually supplies his own words. Gazzo clones do his routine word for word - like robots - even if the presentation doesn't fit them - which is almost always. It works, but doesn't talent, thought, or investment by the performer.
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HerbLarry Special user Poof! 731 Posts |
Vernon and Wonder routines are done word for word as well with better results.
Gazzo's bit is about personality not so much words and moves put together. Easier to pull off words and moves than it is someones personality which is why we should put ourselves into our magic to make it ours but also to make it magic. Please don't infer that I mean Vernon and Wonder have no personality. Gazzo comes on strong and we all know it.
You know why don't act naive.
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ray raymond Veteran user 329 Posts |
A lot of street performers use Gazzo's routine as a starting point. It takes years of working something to devolop it to the point of becoming your own. Gazzo's routine is essentially Dai vernon's routine. Before gazzo developed into gazzo, take a moment to ask is he a vernon clone. now you will say no, but what if you saw him 25 years ago? I used things from gazzo, kozmo, peter wardell, nick nickolas, as a starting point. I have only been busking for a few years and as time goes by more of my self comes through. Gazzo, and Kozmo will tell you you need some where to start, and it takes years of constantly working to make it your own. What seems odd to me is all the people who make these accusations of people being clones of others. they all have one thing in common. They are not workers. Put them in front of a crowd, then see what happens. most of them could probably not build or keep a crowd. It is much easier to set back and say "your a gazzo clone " than it is to actually go out and work. Not only that, but gazzo sold the routine, through books, videos, If some one bought it they have the right to use that as there starting point. People are quick to judge, not so quick to jump in front of a crowd and work.
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fireperformer911 Special user 547 Posts |
I think the personality issues are valid to a point. Only Gazzo is Gazzo. (Although Todd Various is close.)
I am rather offended that critics of "Gazzo Clones" are seen as armchair quarterbacks with no talent or experience. If magic is an art, the people who enjoy it in addition to the people who perform it, both have the expertise to comment accurately. SC |
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ray raymond Veteran user 329 Posts |
Fireperformer911,
in some ways I see your point, when it comes down to it all I am saying is talk is cheap. Watching clips of Todd he is no Gazzo not even close. Todd various is his own man he is in my opinion Equally entertaining as Gazzo. Both Todd and Gazzo Both do the cups but personality wise I think they are different. I do not feel that the material matters much ultimately it is the performer that the people like, not the trick. For example look @ Gazzo's new show. people love Gazzo no matter if he is doing the cups show, or his tossed out deck show. it is gazzo |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
When I had been performing professionally for a couple of years, I had one of those formative moments. I attended a Dai Vernon lecture. This was part of his "Thousand Dollar Lecture Tour." He said many things that I took to heart, but the most important one was this: "Be natural. Be yourself. Do not try to be another Doug Henning or another Mark Wilson. No matter how well you imitate them, you will never be as good at being them as they are. But they will never be as good at being YOU as you can be."
There is nothing wrong with doing Gazzo's material. But when you try to BE Gazzo, that's where the trouble starts. Start by performing his routine, then toss out the parts that don't fit you and add new parts that do. BTW, this doesn't just happen in busking. It happens in every aspect of magic and in every form of art. For every Elvis Presley, there are thousands of Elvis impersonators. If you want to understand how ridiculous some of this can be, watch Cheech and Chong's "Shrimp on the Barbie," and pay close attention to the Pakistani Elvis impersonator.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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deadcatbounce Special user the Wilds of Ireland 863 Posts |
Fireperformer - the Gazzo Clones issue is a subject I raised here months back, and I had an extended "discussion" with Nick about this in Cardiff earlier this year.
When in London, I make a point of visiting Covent Garden- partly because I worked the market there for years and still have friends there, and partly to keep an eye on what's going on at street performing level. On one occasion, I saw 3 Gazzo clones in a row - all with the same lines, the same jokes. Can't comment on the cups moves, as I wasn't as cognisant with the routines as I am now. Nick defended this by saying that the lines and jokes were "out there" and most of them didn't belong to Gazzo anyway. He also justified this copycat behaviour by pointing out that the Covent Garden crowd was different every 20 minutes. It is - that's true, and that's what's good and bad about magicians corner in Covent Garden. Now - I haven't seen Nick work a crowd, but its' clear he's a very capable worker - but he was missing my point. He's put hundreds of hours into practicing, as his skill level (what I saw of it) was above average, but if he put just a fraction of that time into working out new lines, his show would move to a different level, and he'd be able to comfortably step out of his Gazzo clothes, into a brand new suit. I feel very strongly about the development of routines and the infusion of my own personality into these routines. I'm talking here, not as a seasoned street performer, as it's still a new area for me, but I've worked as a professional magician long enough to know that unless you are comfortable with your own public personna, you're just NOT doing yourself justice. Not everyone LIKES Gazzo, the performer - but the closer you move to the edge, the more you polarize your crowd. Jerry Sadowitz would be the perfect example here..... And.. you might be surprised if you knew Todd Various' background. As I've said before, he has a great show, but it's far removed from Gazzo's, if you look at it closely. Regards, DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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fireperformer911 Special user 547 Posts |
I agree with the posts as far as it is better to have a show that is yours and reflects your personality. I have had the great pleasure to see both Todd Various show and Gazzo show in person in Key West although Todd is a student of Gazzos his show is definitely his personality just as Gazzo show is his personality.
I also don't do a Gazzo show because I could NOT pull it off just as I could not be as smooth as Dai Vernon or Tommy Wonder . A bad tribute is a bad tribute. My question is why the double standard? |
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jimmy talksalot Special user new orleans 757 Posts |
Doing someone else's show without THEIR PERMISSION every day as your occupation is not a tribute, it's disrespectful to the original.
a student of a master using PERMISSION is a tribute. a student using the permission of a student of a student or what ever is a tribute, [all in the family so to speak]. doing an impersonation or tribute show at a convention is a tribute. showing fellow magicians what it may have looked like when the author did it, that's a tribute. copying, monkey see monkey do from a DVD or a book is not a tribute. it's lazy, arrogant, and disrespectful. the idea is that there is an EXAMPLE in a DVD of some thing that can be done with moves to create your own routine or show. this is why you don't see painters only painting the Monalisa. you can see some Mona in a lot of paintings but it's not the same painting. this questions is a valid question and it has several answers that all leading to the same conclusion. apeing bad - creating good. when ever you see a new show on TV or in the movies that makes it big, is it an exact example of the show before it? if some one is doing Vernon's or wonder's show out there for a living every day they are a clone...talented with their hands, but still a monkey. Posted: Nov 5, 2009 5:03pm Learning a new show is hard. sometimes copying the show of your teacher is needed until you manage to create your own, with his permission. if you don't have a teacher or the creative skills to make an original show [and it certainly should never take "years"] YOU MAY WANT TO PAY A PROFFESSIONAL TO WRITE A SHOW FOR YOU. if your a hobbyist who just likes goofin with magic, copying doesn't seem an issue to me.....although there are those who would disagree with me...and they maybe right. not knowing the answer to many of these questions is simply a break down in our tradition. the answers are there if we dig enough with the good examples [and not the bad ones] of the past magicians. Posted: Nov 5, 2009 5:13pm 1.permission. 2.using moves from a book/DVD's example routine to create a new routine. 3.tribute and plagerism two different things. Posted: Nov 5, 2009 5:18pm Can you tell me some one doing Vernon or wonder's routine-AND-persona AND COSTUME AND PATTER on t.v. or in a theater for a living? |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
If anyone knows of someone who is doing Gazzo's show and has a problem with it, then I suggest you bring them to our attention here or on one of the busking forums.
Nothing like a good old-fashioned public shameing to wake someone up and make them take accounting for their behavior. All this Passive-Aggressive horse-manure, and vague insinuations about "all those golly-gosh-darned Gazzo clones are ruining busking" is really getting on my pectorals. If you've got something to say to someone I suggest you man-up and say it to their faces.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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deadcatbounce Special user the Wilds of Ireland 863 Posts |
And.. before I forget... I don't buy this "Twice as many Nuns in the world as there are Street Performers"
This, was a quote from Gazzo, I think. If it was you, Mario - please forgive me. It matters not where it came from, but the fact of the matter is - Nuns and Street performers move in different circles (bit of a pun there, if you look hard enough). For example, you never see Nuns in night clubs, you don't see them at the racetrack, boxing matches, bullfights, lap-dancing clubs, or cock fights. These places are not the natural habitat of the Nun. Street Performers, on the other hand....well.. There are even pics of some of them in a Hot Tub... (you know who I'm talking about here...) I don't know how many Eskimos there are in the world, but I've never knowingly seen one anywhere - not even on public transport. And I spend a lot of time in London, one of the most Cosmopolitan Cities in the world. But I HAVE seen a helluva lot of Pan Pipe outfits. Are there MORE Pan Pipe outfits (talking of clones here, after all) than there are Eskimos? Regards, DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I don't believe there really is a double standard. If you really get down to mastering a routine, such as the Vernon routine, there will be a point at which you begin to inject your own personality into it and it starts to become your routine. Gazzo started with the Vernon routine. When I first met Cellini, I asked him what he did. He said that he did his version of the Vernon routine.
But nobody would mistake Cellini or Gazzo for Vernon, and vice versa. Each of them took the routine into a different place. As others have pointed out, it's when you begin to ape everything that, for example, Gazzo does, line for line, word for word, even if it doesn't fit you, that you begin to have problems -- whether you have permission or not. A few decades ago, I got permission from Terry Seabrooke to do his version of the George Schindler routine for the Delben double wrist chopper. I changed about 75% of the lines, because they didn't fit me. It took me about six months to inject my own personality into the chopper.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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deadcatbounce Special user the Wilds of Ireland 863 Posts |
Gaddy,
When I see someone do a Gazzo show, I'll take up the issue with THEM, rather than bring it on here. But - problem is - if they can make good hats - and that's all they're in the game for - what do they really care? I suspect there's a fairly large drop-out rate in the street performing business. Likewise, when I see a GOOD street show, I'll tell the guy. If I see someone who's a bit mediocre, but not copying anyone, I generally stay shtum. Every business needs respect. And by that, I mean respect between the workers and the bosses. On the streets, I think that respect is heightened, because it's between the performers themselves. Or should be. "bosses" (authority) are the obstacles like the councils, or cops, or other impediments. I'm not saying that every street performer deserves respect from his/her fellow performers - it has to be earned. But the little gang of clones Magic Corner feed off each other,pate each other on the back, and I've yet to hear more than a handful of original lines from them. Now - I'm gonna settle down and watch my 3 DVD set featuring Gazzo and Mario "The School of Busking" And after that - I'll review it in the appropriate section. Regards, DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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jimmy talksalot Special user new orleans 757 Posts |
Deadcatbounce,
brilliant, I'll second that. |
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Pizpor Elite user 476 Posts |
A thought crossed my mind as I read this thread. Trust me, I get the whole 'don't steal anybodies act' honor system - but the basic premise here is about doing someone else's material. What I'm wondering - In Gazzo's book on the cups and balls, he says that by buying his book, you can do the routine as written - every joke, every move, everything. Given that people need time to make a piece their own, can we really come down on them for doing a routine that's being sold and promoted in both written form and on dvd?
They'll never be Gazzo, but maybe they will create something from his framework. I dunno. Just thinking. |
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deadcatbounce Special user the Wilds of Ireland 863 Posts |
Jimmy,
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I look forward to seeing and talking with you on my travels next year. Regards, DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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Kozmo V.I.P. 5473 Posts |
Gazzo sold his show.....thats a tough thing...i sold mine also.....and in the last 2 months I have gone out and worked pitch's and guys are doing it line for line....well they bought it....simple.....thats the deal...you put it out there on dvd then they can do it....good or bad
I can tell you it sucks to have someone do your show on the same pitch but that's the way it goes...hopefully they are respectful enough to not do it well I'm in town... gazzo is not easy to copy and I have seen many fail.....hes the best there is and the best there has ever been.....not easy to copy a master.... good luck |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-11-05 18:25, deadcatbounce wrote: No wonder I get so little feedback... PS- while maintaining my original position, I also agree with you 100% !
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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deadcatbounce Special user the Wilds of Ireland 863 Posts |
Pizpor,
I believe that you ARE correct in stating that Gazzo has apparently sold his act - lock, stock and barrel. But - and it's a BIG butt...who really wants to perform a trick or routine straight out the box? The biggest obstacle to the amateur performer is how to make a 10 second trick last longer than 10 seconds. If you use the instructions for say... err... err.. trying to think here.. ah yes! Disappearing silk. Read the instructions, and its' over in 30 seconds, with no punchline, as I recall. "I have a hanky... I push it in my hand, and say the magic word - it's vanished." We all know it uses every magi's pal - but - I spin that out for about as long as I feel I can, if that's what I want. And that's the difference. It's no longer a 30 second trick. Prof Nightmare -how long does that take "straight from the box"? Maybe 2 minutes? I've said it before, - I watched a certain street performer do the Vanishing Hank, and the Cups and balls in Edinburgh - he got 45 minutes of great entertainment using these two effects. When I can do that - I'll feel I'm in the right area... I'm not coming down on the raw beginners here - I'm having a go at the ones who should know better, but refuse to improve, and make their OWN show. Regards, DCB... ps Hey. Fireperformer911 - you sure re-lit the fuse on this baby, huh? I'm halfway through the first disc, incidentally, and I'm impressed - so far...and I'm not easily impressed..
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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