I have just learnt how to play this casino gambling dice game but am still very much feeling my way.I am cautiously practicing/experimenting on the internet rather than in a alive casino. The problem is that I have yet to find a system of betting that prevents me from falling victim to the dreaded house advantage.

How does one make any money with Craps?? I have followed the commonly given advice to use "a no pass" bet hedged with a placement bet on the 6 and 8. I have even tried doubling up on a one roll bet on "any craps" at 7 to one.The wise say that there are only four bets worth making with this game-the pass, no pass, come and do not come bets.

Does anyone have any advice or guidance for a game that I think is the most exciting game that can be played in the casino.Does one have to rely totally on 'hunches'or can skill be used to any degree? Can there be any system for Craps such as with Blackjack or roulette such as Martingale or reverse Labouchere?

With many thanks Andy.

That's because betting systems are for suckers and will in no way, ever, overcome the house edge.

It doesn't matter what bets you make. If they are made at a disadvantage, they are losing bets. It doesn't matter if they are double the previous bet, half the next one, the result of some complex algebraic equation, or taken off the face of a die. A bet with a negative expectation is a bet with negative expectation, regardless of the size or the series.

There is no real way to get a consistant advantage at craps. Although you can minimize the loss over time.

Some places allow many times "odds" bets and this helps. I also think I read once, and do not want to place it as FACT, that if you have enough "odds" bets on the Don't Pass line, you can have a fractional advantage. I will look.

But a consistant 2 or 3% advantage does not exist in craps. That is if you are not doing anything the casino would not want you to. Sliding the dice and such. I am speaking only of odds on the game the way they think it should be played. If you learn dice throws, (which I think are legal) you can change things.

By the way, the Martingale has been a casino's best friend since the first time someone tried it! I can think of HUNDREDS of craps systems just as good and guaranteed to garner the same result!

On your list of bets you left out the "odds" bets. They are such a good bet, they are not even listed on the felt. Those probably are the "best" bets on the table. (maybe in the casino)

YOu do get a fractional advantage on the don't's, its around 1.40 vs. 1.41 on the Pass... its not enough to warrant an advantage though... odds bets wether on the right side or wrong has no house advantage and pays true odds which makes it the best bet in the casino.....

That is a truism that I have shared with many since I completed craps dealing school in the early 1980's.

The payouts for taking the odds for, or laying the odds against the shooter's point are the only wagers in any form of gambling that I am aware of that do not include a house vig, since it is dice probbilty that dictates payoff odds. The house relies upon its strong percentage on the prerequisite Pass or Don't Pass Bets to grind out their steady profits.

As Dannydoyle referred to above, the availability of 5X and 10X odds taking or laying odds may indeed be a good bet, but you also run the risk of going broke much sooner if your cold streaks are extended.

I'm not a gambler, so I'll refrain from advising on the mathematic edge that you proposed regarding so-called off-setting bets, although I suspect that they have no major effect on cutting one's losses over the long haul.

When I was in dealer's school in lower Manhattan we had to place bets as if we were five different players on every roll of the dice to give the student dealers a challenging workout. Naturally, I played the don'ts on many rolls and one day I was laying black cheques against the points of four and ten. When the school executive director Bobby Ayoub walked into the "casino" as he often did he stopped, looked down, and shouted "Who made those bets!"

Well I sheepishly raised my hand as he shook his head from side-to-side saying, "That's a real F%$#@n dealer's bet!" as he walked away grinning at me (I attended the school undercover to learn the games from the inside out and only Bobby and two others in the school knew that). Bobby told me later that I was the last one at the table he would have figured had become a gambler.

If I learned one thing in school, it's that the best you can hope for is to slow down your losses by choosing the best percentage bets and sticking firmly to your plans. Wavering and making hunch bets will deplete your bankroll in a hurry unless you're the luckiest guy on the planet.

The only players I've even known on the east coast that I can verify got the best of it in A.C. were very self-disciplined guys who decided up front when they took a bus down how much they were willing to lose on each trip and, more importantly, how much they expected to win based on their wagers. When they reached their upper limit they'd put that amount in their left pocket and, if they had some excess, would continue to bet with house money. If they just made their profit limit they would get a slot token cup full of Johnny Walker Black and take a limo home. If they exceeded their losing limit, they'd get back on the poor man's bus to Brooklyn. When I'd run into these guys I'd just ask "Bus or Limo?" and the one word response would tell me how they fared.

Every kid in dealer's school used to brag about how much they'd make in A.C. over the weekend betting against the shooter and every Monday we'd ask them how they did and they'd admit that they lost and, when pressed, also admitted that they didn't have the cajones to bet against the mob of right-bettors.

If you decide that your best shot is to be a wrong-bettor but don't have the nuts to bet against the crowd either play a conservative strategy with the shooter and stick to it, or don't play and save your money.

Bret

I don't see how that can work out. To place an odds bet, you have to place a pass/don't pass bet first, right? And that bet is made with a negative expectation.

Given that the odds bet is given true odds, it is a break-even bet. No advantage for anyone.

I maintain that there's absolutely no way of making the total bet +EV, regardless of how much you are placing at true odds. The more you can bet at true odds, the less the total house edge will be. But it will never reach 0% or lower. You would need a +EV bet in there to offset the negative expectation of pass/don't pass.

Thanks for all the useful and solid advice.The following statistics might interest you.

Pass line bet/Come bet=1.41% house advantage,
Don't pass line bet/don't come=1.36% house advantage,
Place bet on point number 6/8 to win=1.52% house advantage,

All the other bets seem to be sucker bets especially the 'big 6 and 8'(best to make the place bet at 7 to 6 rather than evens).Beting on 'any seven' on a one roll is the worst sucker bet of them all at a 16.67% house advantage.
Danny brought up the idea of using the 'odds bet' as a way of eroding the house advantage. This would certainly work but you would as Bret warns run the risk of losing your capital more rapidly in a cold run.

The basic passline bet as we have seen has a house advantage of 1.41%.
Single odds=down to 0.85%
Double odds=down to 0.61%
Presumably multiple odds plus a run of good luck means that at least in theory it might be possible to create a positive playing advantage.Some casino's employ the '4,5,6 times system' (x3 with 4 or 10, x4 with 5 or 9, x5 with 6 or 8) This may simplify things for the dealer but would place a limitation on the potential for a positive advantage in the game.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

NO!!! Absolutely not, never, not going to happen, not in a million years.

You CANNOT, ever, overcome a negative expectation bet by laying a true odds bet. The EV curve will be asymptotic and the house edge will never be reduced to 0%, let alone going below it. Your true odds bet is break-even, not profitable, and no matter how much money you lay at 0% advantage, you will not be able to overcome the house edge on the pass line bet.

Not to mention that "a run of good luck" has absolutely nothing to do with a positive playing advantage. Luck is variance, and no matter how lucky you get, it won't transform a -EV play into +EV.

Naturally the problem is that you do not get to place the "odds" bet, unless you have placed the psss/don't pass bet first. The combination of the two will yield a - expected value for your total bet in play.

I just don't like to talk in "absolutes" because there are those who freequent these forums who like to find ONE case in a million in which under the exact circumstance under the exact lighting and with the dealer looking the other way it is proven wrong.



Ignorance of this little mathematical gem is how the casino pays for the cool decor.

If you mean a controlled shot, I wouldnt waste my time. Maximize your odds bets.

I don't know much about many things. I will say this that you cannot ever beat math. THis is a fixed odds game the house has the advantage. You will lose in the long run no matter how you bet. Leave it alone.

Placing max odds AND A RUN OF GOOD LUCK.Yes obviously luck is variant and I did not mention it as part of any 'system'. What I meant is that 'luck' (which in any case resides within a longer term 'pattern' of probability) as an occurance should not be ignored. Quitting when slightly ahead is the one important thing that most punters do not do! Eroding the house advantage is better than not eroding the house advatage.I don't think anyone is saying that one can actually turn the tables on the casino through any so called 'system'. If this was so then the casinos would soon be out of business.

Take roulette.One can erode the house advantage by choosing to use a European wheel (with one zero).The probability of a four black number sequence coming up in play is as long as one in sixteen. So if you bet on red and hedge a little by placing an equal bet on the second column (the one with eight black numbers)entering the game immediately after a four black number sequence comes up would this be a 'system'? I personally doubt that it could be.After all it too relies on luck and the house advantage remains against you. However my experience has been that one should be able to consistantly grind out a small profit over time with patience.Then when only slightly ahead you quit bored as hell

This is an interesting discusion. Many thanks to you all for your input.

Actually, yes, good gamblers who have their head on straight know that luck as an occurence should be completely discounted. What you care about is making plays with a positive expectation, not getting a lucky streak.



Ridiculous. This type of streak hunting makes absolutely no sense at all. You must not realize that while 5 blacks in a row is unlikely, 4 blacks in a row followed by a red is exactly just as unlikely. Exact same probabilities. Any system that bets streaks is fundamentally flawed and demonstrates an inability to understand odds.

The plural of anecdote is not anecdata, and never will be.

This is an interesting discusion. Many thanks to you all for your input.
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Andy,

A roulette bets mixing in black or red, odd or even is subject to the green zero, even on the French wheel, which in the long run is tough to beat.

However, if some folks didn't enjoy winning streaks leaving with the house's money, no one would visit casinos anymore.

As an aging man who should probably know better, I am sorry to say that I have met people that I feel have had more than their share in winning lotteries, casino games and church raffles. Then, there are guys like me who rarely win anything. Well, I'll just have to be saisfied with my good looks

Luck is merly a random short term fluxuation in chance.

Key words being random, short term, fluxuation, and chance.

Take out the pole while your money-guy is coming down late, effectively rounding the box, all the while you're laying one down flat.

Or...

Cut into the crew, get the joint wired, come in and fire snowballs at 'em.

Something like that...

I bet there are many ways to beat the house at craps if you want to walk the other side of what is "legal" behavior.

Yeah or you could just take a bankroll, accept that you have the worst of it (IN THEORY), and take a shot and gamble on the square. We see fortunes won and lost everyday in this town.

I've seen a $400 buy-in turn into $40,000. 20 to 40-minute rolls are an almost daily occurrence. You've got to bet it to get it.

Yeah overtime you're supposed to be giving it all back. But that's not the point. You want to be one of those statistical outliers who makes their load and hits the road.

I may be wrong, but the casino wins "in the long run" or as you say you give it all back. While this is true, it IS possible to be on the other side of the equasion and if you do stop at the right time you can walk a winner.

Heck people win at slots and even Keno every day. Not having "the best of it" does not mean you HAVE to lose.

I always have said just going and playing the games you enjoy, the best they can be played sort of makes you a winner at the start. Having more than when you started is a bouous.

Or you can be a tightass and bet the pass and the don't pass and decide wether to take or lay odds once you got a point this is a !@#$%^& move though