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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2009-11-22 16:37, Harry Lorayne wrote: And MemDeck330 (should there be one). |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
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On 2009-11-17 17:33, MemDeck329 wrote: Great stuff, thanks!
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scody Loyal user 232 Posts |
So... what is the letter for 0, as in 40?
Can I assume that I should just use O... like... 40 could be ROW?
-manamana
Denver Corporate and Party Magician |
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
Is anyone aware of any decks that are constructed through an algorithm from the position number? Either using mnemoics from the individual position numbers or otherwise. I'm not aware of any and it must be a concept people have toyed with. Aside from rote memory methods such a thing would be very useful.
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Hi Scody, the letter for "O" (zero) is the same as for "10". It is an "S". So, 20 = NoSe, 30 = MaSS, and 40 = RoSe.
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
ThePreeningNinny, there are several stacks using that principle.
Here is a link for more info: http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html |
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
Thanks MemDeck, but to my knowledge you cannot work out the positions of cards from the number with any of these stacks. I have tried using Dyment's Quick Stack and though he uses some good mnemonic tricks in order to remember the positions of cards, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done to get to a known position. As in working out what properties a certain card has, then which bank it is in, what position in that bank, then adding how far down the bank is to the position. It's not rocket science but for someone who is terrible with math (such as I) 5 seconds or so of calculation totally stall the momentum I need for certain tricks.
I basically mean something like someone names 12 and so in the mnemonic alphabet 1 is T and 2 is N, TeN, so you know the value of the card is 10, the 2 cycles through CHaSeD order so CLUBS>HEARTS - it's the 10 of Hearts. This kind of stack would be much quicker to work with and wouldn't require the work a rote memory stack would. EDIT: My apologies, I obviously wasn't paying attention to the page or this thread, there are mnemonic systems in Aronson's stack for working out cards from the number, however this still does utilise a quite a bit of rote memory aid. However I need a stack which is cyclical in nature and Aronson's isn't! It looks like I'm going to have to construct my own stack and mnemonic system for it - gah! |
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Perhaps we are discussing semantics here, but the Aronson stack IS cyclical to the extent that the stack does not begin with "1" and end with "52". After card #52, comes card #1, and the cycle continues. I did tons of research before deciding on the Aronson stack. I read all of the memorized deck postings here in the forum!
Once you memorize the stack (any stack), there is no comparision with any of the other systems. I believe there is no better, faster, or easier method than memorizing the stack of your choice. When ANY card is named, you know EXACTLY where it is in the deck. When any number is called out, you know INSTANTLY the name of the card. This is without ANY calculations, formulas, etc. This becomes ingrained knowledge, not computation! Memorizing a stack sounds hard but it really is something that anyone can do with only a modicum of effort. I am 66 years old and memorized the Aronson stack in only three weeks. If you learn only two lousy cards a day, it will only take you less than a month to get it down. If you learn 4 cards a day, it will take you less than 2 weeks. Some like to start out with just the 4 Aces on day one. On day two learn the 4 deuces, etc. It is difficult to eat an entire elephant in one day. But, if you have an elephant sandwich several days in the row, before you know it, the elephant is eaten. If you also use a locator card such as a breather, infinity, short, thick, long, etc. you can even let the spectator cut the deck several times. A single cut, pass, double-undercut, etc. restores your stack order. I have studied most of the systems and I truly believe that most, if not all, of the "shortcut" systems are sadly lacking in comparison to an actual memorized deck of cards. You don't even need a pack of cards to drill. After a while, you can do your drills in your mind. If you are willing to do further work on your estimation skills, you can learn to cut to (produce) any 4-of-a-kind! In "Workers 5", Michael Close mentions how he will "run the suits". This means he will (for practice) cut to the AC, then the 2C, then the 3C, all the way up to the KC. Then he starts over with the Hearts, Spades, and Diamonds. With a memorized deck and estimation skills, you can work miracles that the finger-flingers cannot compete with. |
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
Thanks, I'm not discounting the power of a rote memorised deck - just that I need a cyclical stack with random appearing suits for one of my own effects. Cyclical as in the mate every each card is in seperate halves of the deck. Looks like constructing my own stack and system are the only options sadly. D:
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
If you look around a bit, I think you will find that this "wheel" has already been invented in several incarnations. Maybe this thread will provide exactly the answer to what you are seeking:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=37 And, you might get even more responses if you start a new thread on this topic. It's kind of buried here in this "Memorized Deck Made Easy" topic..... |
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
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On 2009-12-20 14:07, MemDeck329 wrote: Thanks a lot. Just can't view the topic yet until I hit 50 posts. Ho-hum, I'll have to think of more inane witterings to say now! |
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Swami predicts you will be in the Secret Sessions in a very short time.
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
I think you may be right. That's another one down!
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Actually, very short posts like your last one, may not add to your count! Posts like "thanks" or "good idea" do not usually advance the counter. In the meantime, do a search for "rosary", etc.
Stackview is invaluable for creating a new stack or manipulating one already in use. It could save you hundreds of hours of experimentation. |
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scody Loyal user 232 Posts |
Hey Memdeck...
Thank you sooooo much, and thanks to all those that came before you... Tamariz is in my head... and, it feels like it's here to stay... it only took me about 4 hours... and of course... some daily follow up. The fact is... I've memorized this stack three times before... and it just never stuck. I can't picture the 6 of hearts, without thinking New Mexico Hash... I can't picture the 32, without thinking Mean DJ or... Jack of Diamonds... very useful...
-manamana
Denver Corporate and Party Magician |
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ThePreeningNinny New user Under the Bed 84 Posts |
Stack View is great, that's what I've been using to try and construct my own stack so far. It's also good for analysing shuffle patterns, the only annoying thing about it is you can't set the riffle shuffles to be exactly half deck portions, or at least I can't figure out how to do so. So I can't try and work out gilbreathian patterns with it.
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Scody, I'm glad to be of service.... It's always nice when something useful appears at the same time the mind is receptive.
ThePreeningNinny, I'll bet Nick can point you in the right direction. Here is a link to his email address: http://www.stackview.com/contact.html |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
For me, it was easier to simply memorize the deck than to memorize what letter went with each number, then what word used each letter, then what word went with each card, then an association between each number and its corresponding card. It was much easier, for me, to simply remember: 1=Card, 2=card, etc. I was able to do that in a couple of days.
As Martin Joyal points out in The Six-Hour Memorized Deck, the mnemonic system described above requires you to memorize 104 mnemonic words & 52 associations / pictures. Joyal's stack uses 14 rules rather than mnemonic words and associations. I was able to memorize it in about 3 hours. (However, I should mention that I grew up in a church and a Christian school where I was required to regularly memorize large and quite long passages of Scripture, and thus, I had a very strong "rote memory" ability from habit and exercise.) With the Joyal method, as well as with the mnemonic method, eventually all the extra stuff (rules, word associations, whatever) just fall by the wayside, and you simply know what card is at which number and vice versa without having to call up the memory aids to get to that. Regarding the technique mentioned above that Michael Close used... I learned to do that as well after reading the Workers books. Before I took a 5 year layoff from magic, I got scary-good at estimation. I very rarely missed by more than one card and was spot-on much of the time. The nice thing about estimation is that it doesn't require any digital dexterity. The bad thing about it is that it requires just as much practice as a really difficult sleight! But, combined with a memdeck, estimation is extremely powerful. A very basic, but very strong application: You're performing for a married couple. After a few shuffles (false) and cuts, you ask him to name any card in the deck. Then you ask her for any number between 1 and 52. A pass (or double undercut), and you hand the deck to him, asking him to deal down to her number, where he finds his card. STRONG!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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MemDeck329 Regular user 179 Posts |
Hey Scott, nice sig! I agree that rote memory is the best way for SOME. But, whatever you do, don't let HL find out!!! (kidding).
Estimation, in combination with a memdeck is killer! One tip is to practice with a deck in the same condition as a performance deck. Over time, my decks grow "fatter" with use. |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-12-22 17:39, MemDeck329 wrote: As do I! In another thread, Harry says his students can have a whole deck memorized in minutes. I can't do that with rote memory. I can do, maybe, a quarter up to half the deck, but not the whole thing--not in minutes. In an hour or so, maybe. But I wouldn't retain it after a day or two. Just out of curiosity, Harry (you know I'm a big fan of yours and that I believe your statement): When your students memorize a deck in a few minutes, is that just for say, one memory demonstration? In other words, would they retain the memorized order and be able to, say a week or a month later, be able to nail any card or any position and do the many many memdeck effects in the literature? Or would they have to "re-memorize" the order? Because if it's the former, that would be invaluable to a working pro! I'm not trying to be a wise guy, honest. Just wondering. If they CAN retain it, is that something that's in one of your books, or is it something one would enroll in or set up with you on a special basis?
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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