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balducci
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What claims about coal and natural gas? I made NO claims about either; I asked you questions. Which you ignored. Here they are again:

1. Doesn't Oklahoma gets most of its electricity from coal and natural gas?

2. Isn't the coal industry infamous for taking government handouts?

Those are questions, not claims. Ignore them if they confuse you or if you do not want to answer them.

YOU are the one making claims, and YOU have yet to prove YOUR claim that "if you separated the power his company produces from the hydroelectric, you would see the real cost of it is a great deal more than the 6.85 Cents per Kilowatt-hour probably more that 10 Cents per Kilowatt-hour".

I'm still waiting ...
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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http://www.realclimate.org/?comments_popup=1853



60. Can you explain the multiple references in the emails to evading FOIA responses, for example as in “delete all email [on certain topic] and I will do the same”?

[Response: No. But I am not party either to those FOIA requests, nor the timing and nor do I know what happened or what the scope was. - gavin]…”



38. I hear a lot about the FOIA and data that was being withheld that is now lost or destroyed. Is there an explanation or a reference to that which would answer what I have been hearing on the other end?

[Response: No data has been lost or destroyed. - gavin]




I wasn't a party to the FOIA requests, and I don't know what happened or what the scope was, but I know that no data was lost or destroyed.




I also like:

[Response: Everyone involved in any FOIA request is always asking what is required to be responsive, what the scope of the request covers and what issues there might be that would provide exemptions. Such discussions go on every time. I can only speak about my own experience with that and the guidance we were given with respect to those requests. Partial views of that process without the full context would make it extremely easy to jump to unwarranted conclusions. - gavin]

as an explanation for things like:

"The skeptics seem to be building up a head of steam here! … The IPCC comes in for a lot of stick. Leave it to you to delete as appropriate! Cheers Phil
PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data. Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !”

and

"Mike, Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address. We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.”


John, you're a rational guy. I'm not asking you to stake your firstborn's life on it, or to deny global warming, but surely if you had to take your best guess, you'd have to say there's a little bit of fire under the smoke?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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http://seattle.gov/light/news/Issues/RateProc/

Before you fall too in love with that rate figure, it is going up a bit. As a former journalist, let me translate a bit "help close the revenue gap" means that they're losing money selling electricity at that price, and will continue to be losing money even after the 13.8% increase. That revenue gap is over $100,000,000. But, you know, no shareholders to answer to, so why not?

"Employment or
positions at City Light in 2009 are some 130 positions or 7.4% higher than just one
year ago at a time when most enterprises have introduced furloughs or reduced
staffing by significant numbers."

Well, as long as we have those great salaries and benefits, why not hire more people while everyone else is under the mistaken belief that the econcomy is bad?


Who's that dude on the roof with the violin?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 22:49, LobowolfXXX wrote:
http://www.realclimate.org/?comments_popup=1853



60. Can you explain the multiple references in the emails to evading FOIA responses, for example as in “delete all email [on certain topic] and I will do the same”?

[Response: No. But I am not party either to those FOIA requests, nor the timing and nor do I know what happened or what the scope was. - gavin]…”



38. I hear a lot about the FOIA and data that was being withheld that is now lost or destroyed. Is there an explanation or a reference to that which would answer what I have been hearing on the other end?

[Response: No data has been lost or destroyed. - gavin]




I wasn't a party to the FOIA requests, and I don't know what happened or what the scope was, but I know that no data was lost or destroyed.




I also like:

[Response: Everyone involved in any FOIA request is always asking what is required to be responsive, what the scope of the request covers and what issues there might be that would provide exemptions. Such discussions go on every time. I can only speak about my own experience with that and the guidance we were given with respect to those requests. Partial views of that process without the full context would make it extremely easy to jump to unwarranted conclusions. - gavin]

as an explanation for things like:

"The skeptics seem to be building up a head of steam here! … The IPCC comes in for a lot of stick. Leave it to you to delete as appropriate! Cheers Phil
PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data. Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !”

and

"Mike, Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address. We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.”


John, you're a rational guy. I'm not asking you to stake your firstborn's life on it, or to deny global warming, but surely if you had to take your best guess, you'd have to say there's a little bit of fire under the smoke?


The excerpts are interesting in that they reveal something of the personalities involved. I suspect the inboxes of the folks involved in this discussion at this forum would come up with more than a few unsavoury bits.

CRU is a small player in a very large amount of data and analysis worldwide. Mathematical models aren't going to fall over this little bit of mischief.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 22:47, balducci wrote:
What claims about coal and natural gas? I made NO claims about either; I asked you questions. Which you ignored. Here they are again:

1. Doesn't Oklahoma gets most of its electricity from coal and natural gas?

2. Isn't the coal industry infamous for taking government handouts?

Those are questions, not claims. Ignore them if they confuse you or if you do not want to answer them.

YOU are the one making claims, and YOU have yet to prove YOUR claim that "if you separated the power his company produces from the hydroelectric, you would see the real cost of it is a great deal more than the 6.85 Cents per Kilowatt-hour probably more that 10 Cents per Kilowatt-hour".

I'm still waiting ...
1. Doesn't Oklahoma gets most of its electricity from coal and natural gas? Yes as far as I know.

2. Isn't the coal industry infamous for taking government handouts? No as far as I know.

I provided a link from a 2005 study that showed the cost per kWh for wind power was between 5 and 6 cents. The cost have gone up and inflation has increased in the last 5 years, so I think my statements hold water.

I also showed the wind power is subsidized by tax dollars @ 1.9 cents per kWh in 2006, the credit has a yearly inflationary adjustment. Another tax benefit is accelerated depreciation. Many American states also provide incentives, such as exemption from property tax, mandated purchases, and additional markets for "green credits."

Ignore the links if you will, I have answered all your questions and backed my answers with credible links. Maybe you should do more reading and less typing.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
EsnRedshirt
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Tom, a few things-
Nuclear's a fine option, but there's still the little problem of what to do with all the spent fuel. It's going to be dangerous for thousands of years.

Dams have a large environmental impact. If you want to build one, better make sure it won't destroy your salmon industry, or your lumber industry, or etc.

As for the cost of coal energy- sure, it's cheap money-wise, but there's a hidden cost- look up mountain-top removal. That's one of the standard modern ways of mining for coal. The environmental impact is horrific.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 22:59, LobowolfXXX wrote:

"Employment or
positions at City Light in 2009 are some 130 positions or 7.4% higher than just one
year ago at a time when most enterprises have introduced furloughs or reduced
staffing by significant numbers."

Well, as long as we have those great salaries and benefits, why not hire more people while everyone else is under the mistaken belief that the economy is bad?



Yes, we are hiring 130 new positions. Many of these are to meet new Federal and State staffing requirements. Others to fill new Federally mandated conservation programs which are using some of those stimulis dollars you might have heard about recently. Yes, some of these positions will use tax dollars initially but eventually be taken over by income generated by the rate payers.

We are however not immune from cutbacks and furloughs. The City as a whole has implemented a hiring freeze, staff reductions and furloughs So we are not immune from the downturn in the economy either.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 21:19, Tom Bartlett wrote:

I'm didn't quite make my point in that the real reason their cost is cheaper, is due to 89.8% hydroelectric power, produced by dams built by the federal government, paid for by tax payers and is what subsidizes the electricity that the company Payne works for. So yes, the tax payers pay his salary.



Sorry, wrong again. Our ***s were finaced through bonds issued by the city. The Federal Government may have contributed some. But the vast majority of the funding was supplied via bond sales.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 18:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Who says government operations can't thrive!? All it takes is a monopoly on a product that people can't do without and the right to pass costs on to captive consumers!


Seattle City Light was founded because the citizens of the city were being gouged by for profit electric companies from back east. The city sold bonds to fund the building of the first powerhouse which was to provide cheap power for city agencies and infrastructures. When we saw how this inexpensive power could be sold at a much cheaper rate to the citizens of our city we expanded our generation capabilities and drove the high cost privately owned power brokers out of our city. Over the years we have saved our citizens untold millions of dollars. Or to look at it more correctly. Over the years we have paid our shareholders, the citizens of Seattle, millions of dollars in dividends
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
kcg5
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And doobs quit, and it wasnt all about the certificate thing.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2009-11-26 03:24, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-11-25 21:19, Tom Bartlett wrote:

I'm didn't quite make my point in that the real reason their cost is cheaper, is due to 89.8% hydroelectric power, produced by dams built by the federal government, paid for by tax payers and is what subsidizes the electricity that the company Payne works for. So yes, the tax payers pay his salary.



Sorry, wrong again. Our ***s were finaced through bonds issued by the city. The Federal Government may have contributed some. But the vast majority of the funding was supplied via bond sales.
To keep from appearing so obtuse, you should really try reading my post and the links I provided before responding.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
critter
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Quote:
On 2009-11-25 17:54, MAKMagic wrote:
Dude...it's NOT a birth certificate. It's an argument you'll say is proven already and I say isn't. You wishto believe me crazy have at it. Swallow the blue pill.


Dude, I don't think you are crazy. I think that this particular belief is crazy. It doesn't mean I think badly of your character because I don't agree with you on this. Lot's of people I respect believe things I think are a bit looney. Just look at Jimmy Page or John Travolta.
I think it's better to agree to disagree on this one.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
tommy
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Climategate – Leaked Source Code Confirms Climate Fraud

http://fascistsoup.com/2009/11/23/climat......e-fraud/

Scandalous is mild.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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