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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Well Fred, you would like Marduke's thinking, because he uses a lot of NLP like you, like seeks like.
Yes good thinking though, except for the agreement of using a Lesley marked deck. Someone spots a marked deck when you're doing mentalism and you are dead in the water. I doubt you could NLP your way out of that! I would never use one in close quarter work. Paul Hallas. |
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Thoughtreader Inner circle Calgary, Alberta, Canada 1565 Posts |
[quote]On 2002-04-03 07:59, Paul Hallas wrote:
...Yes good thinking though, except for the agreement of using a Lesley marked deck... Paul I suggested that one have one, stacked as well, to switch in should they be challenged by someone to shuffle the deck, not to be used as a regular piece.I also suggested that the current regular deck they are holding be handed to the heckler and as they are shuffling, you take out the "Lesley" deck which you hand to a second, more cooperative participant and as you spread them face up for them you ask if they too feel the need to shuffle or if you may continue with "them". Thus a more cooperative person is used and you have the marked deck as an out if that participant decides to shuffle as well. Then when you are done you may go back to the more difficult one. One should avoid as much as possible something like a marked deck when working like that but I was suggesting a solution to a problem only, not something I would suggest using regularly. Also, the question of what to do when asked to shuffle when using an Ultramental deck - and since one should be using an ultramental deck for a revelation - why would someone want to shuffle the deck since all you are doing is spreading them to reveal one card reversed? As I read through earlier posts I had to ask myself that question. PSIncerely Yours, Paul Alberstat |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
How about saying, "I knew you would be thinking that. Here shuffle the cards. Make sure there is no rhyme or reason in their order... so that you don't even know the order. Good. Let's see if I'm right about you. I think you have powers that even you do not realize. I think with some practice you can get an impression of which card is black and which is red...Without looking at the faces! Let's give it a try." And you're into Out of this World. I'm sure there are hundreds of effects with cards that you can launch into. Just have the arsenal ready when the time comes. Get a good card index and prove you had his chosen card in your wallet all along. NW the card he is merely thinking of on the Joker. There's an incredible Stop trick in Harry Lorayne's CLose Up Card Magic that will floor you... it's not perfect, but with practice you can get about a 90% accuracy. I've destroyed some fellow magicians with it and I'm not that good at it. Do lots of research if you're worried and make sure that whatever they say, you'll be ready with an answer... and the answer isn't , "Hey, do I come to your place of employment tear off your paper hat and nametag.
Just some thoughts. No malice meant. Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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Paradox Regular user 178 Posts |
If someone asks to shuffle the deck, I hesitate a little, then hand it to them & tell them to go to it. When they hand the deck back, I tell them to shuffle it again. And again, this time with a little edge to my voice.
When I'm satisfied that they've shuffled it enough, i divide the deck in half, have them choose one of the halves & go into the Grant shuffled-deck version of Out Of This World. Afterward, I congratulate him on his subconscious astuteness. |
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mrbungle Regular user 149 Posts |
Just go "you want to shuffle them? OK. hold on" finish the trick and then hand out the cards to be shuffled. Easy.
Grandia Enterprises inc. 1974
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Ted Lesley V.I.P. Berlin / Germany 421 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-04-03 07:59, Paul wrote: Dear Paul, if you ever saw an ORIGINAL "Working Performer´s Marked Deck" (not one of the many copies) you should know, that the marks are at one end only. That makes the pack to an "One-Way-Deck"! Hand the spectator the deck in such a way, that the marks are at the end, which he takes in his hand. Done this way, HE COVERS THE MARKS HIMSELF! Billy McComb "hit" on that idea. He was sitting opposite of Johnny Thompson at one time and was toying with one of my first marked packs. As Johnny asked what the deck is all about Billy said that it is marked and handed it to him as described already. Of course, Johnny could not find the marks. So he handed it back to Billy and he started again reading the marks of the cards while he turned the cards face up. Johnny grabbed the deck again and so it went on for half an hour until Billy told him the secret.....FUNNY. The easiest way to avoid the question "can I shuffle the cards" is, when you take the spectator for the trick with you into the spotlight. Experience has shown, that he behaves in such a situation and doesn`t ask such silly questions, except the participant is drunk. And as a good performer you MUST see that before you choose a spectator from the audience. View my video (or the DVD). The second and the third trick are performed with my marked deck UP CLOSE! There you can see, how powerful it is. In the "Card Stab-Routine", where a spectator gets the stabbed card as a souvenir, I even "remove" the marks on its back in full view! How? Watch the tape! (PLUG!)
Ted Lesley
( The "Victor Borge" of Mentalism ) |
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Sauron New user England 83 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-04-02 07:51, Fred Darevil wrote: The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks. "...and the audience laughed about the spectator..." Wonderful! That's okay, then. I'd hate to think that the spectator, having asked such an outrageously ignorant question, would be made to feel anything except humiliation. How easy it must be to get more volunteers after this. I learn so much from these boards, really I do. Thank you, Fred, for sharing with us. |
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Fred Darevil Elite user 446 Posts |
Ok Sauron,
I've well understood that you do not feel confortable with this method. Try something else. My audience never feel humiliated because I establish a good rapport with them and I'm congruent when I say these sort of things so they understand that it is only humour. Laughing is not mocking. They understand that very well and laugh WITH me, included the questionner !.. In fact what you say is interesting to know you more. Because your remark suggests that if YOU would try this technique YOUR audience would feel humiliated. Definitely, try something else... Best, Fred |
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Sergeant Regular user 129 Posts |
Fred and others
I think this is an excellent question and a great topic/thread for this kind of board. I believe some people have failed to address the real issue here as some of the solutions require restructuring the entire trick/act. It would seem to be a simple question from an experience performer. This does make a difference. If it were a beginner, I would have him examine his overall delivery of the trick/act. But since Fred stated it happens rarely but it does happen so what are some thoughts. Big difference when answering this question using those perspectives. OK, first I would have to agree with Paul and say there has been some loss of control over the audience/moment. But now that does happen to everyone at sometime, we get too friendly with a great crowd or maybe too aggressive with a difficult crowd …whatever.. things do not always go as planned.. I mean we are human. So, if it were to happen many times, then you show a lack of control over your show. But since I already said in the beginning we are talking about a rare occurrence of a usually tight act, so lets move on. I did find two other suggested solutions very good. 1. Abort the trick and let them shuffle and do another trick. 2. Tell the person you will get back to them and continue the trick. Of course these answers depend on the mood of the audience and the moment. So I do not believe there is one answer to end all answers on this. Also I must state that I do not believe that every time this happens it is a loss of control of the performance. Sometimes, people just grab for anything. Let me give an example and a solution of a real situation that happened to me. I was entertaining a group of potential clients. This was somewhat impromptu but not totally, as I had felt this moment might come and was prepared, of course to them it look as though everything was happening on the spur of the moment. I had planned on three tricks ending with a prepared deck that had been placed in the room earlier in an innocent and logical place. The crowd was mesmerized as the “impromptu” performance unfolded. Then as I “shuffled” the prepared deck and talked of coincidence, one woman asked to shuffle the deck. Of course I was shocked. And my mind raced to think where I did not convince her. But then it hit me, she was merely grasping, she was so amazed at the pervious miracles she simply had to touch something and be involved. I walked over to her… and looked at her.. silence. “So, an unbeliever.” She looks nervous. “I like unbelievers” she smiles “You must think there is some special order to these cards, even though we have shuffled them. (OK only I shuffled them but we all watched) “And even though they are not my own and I got them there, you must think that, what…umm maybe all the aces are together or something. Like this” I spread them face up in front of her. Oh but they are not. Maybe they are marked.. (I turn over a card and we look) but they are not. Etc. By this time everyone is laughing including her. I then pick up the cards and shuffle them again (so to speak) and the trick continues and I now do it using her. Yes, it was a big hit. Now, I am not saying that this will work in every situation but it can work. Many times with this problem you must simply go with the flow. Sometimes you can get out of it..sometimes you have to bail. I will say this, when someone tells me, “This never happens to me because my act/show/trick is so tight . . .” I cringe just a little and wonder.. and so do you perform? Sergeant |
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espmagic Special user 978 Posts |
Interesting thread, here - I have to agree with Paul's perspective that your audience *should* never lose their focus on you, and gain focus on your props (something about using props in mentalism...)
As well, Marduke's comments are theoretical, as he *never* uses a deck of cards... And, Fred, if you were to take a question like the one you proposed from a sober individual, and responded the way you say you have, it would indicate to me that you were trying too hard to be in control, and you just come across as overbearing. Sure, you might wow them with your flashy magic, but it stops being entertainment, and starts to become a contest of wills - not the type of thing an *entertainer* is supposed to do, right? |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
This forum is interesting.
I like the idea of just changing gears and going to a different trick. It also seems prudent to have another arranged deck. I believe you always want to preserve as many degrees of freedom as possible.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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DarkKnight Regular user 151 Posts |
I think the key is to have an effect stored away that can be done impromtu with any deck. That way if it gets shuffled then no problems. Personally I've never had anyone ask to either shuffle or even examine a deck that I've produced 'out of the box'. By that point in the show tbey're just at a point where they'll happily accept anything that I produce at face value and won't question it.
"your audience *should* never lose their focus on you, and gain focus on your props" - I like this statement it's the sort of thing that I will think about for hours ! |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts |
reply...
" only if you can keep them in the order they are already in" Howard |
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts |
Aside from the obvious routes of going into some different effect that doesn't require a stacked deck (good advice, to be sure), you might want to consider the observation that Annemann made in his "$1000.00 Test Card Location" (though I can't reveal it here, since this is a public board). You can look it up in the Encyclopedia of Card Tricks. Many wonderful effects can be based on this principle.
Ben Blau
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Stuart Cumberland Loyal user 289 Posts |
Warning, my thoughts may be controversial to some of you, but no offence is directed to anyone...
The initial post was a hypothetical question about what to do if someone wants to shuffle the cards you are using. Well, IMHO, you aren't a mentalist if you're using cards. Oh, I know, arguments and flames will come as a result of that comment. But it is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, I sincerely don't mind! Ask a person on the street if they saw someone find a chosen card in a deck would they be a)a magician or b) a psychic? Enough said. BUT... the question WAS hypothetical! So, here's what you do and say... Wrong Way: Magician: (Shuffling cards) Spectator: "May I shuffle the cards?" Magician: "Uhh, uhh... okay, but I won't be able to finish my trick now!" Better Way: Magician: (Shuffling cards) Spectator: "May I shuffle the cards?" Magician: "Sure! Of Course! Take them and shuffle them, please. Are you completely satisfied? Why not, just to be sure, shuffle them ONE MORE TIME? Excellent... (taking deck back and placing behind back removes one card). What was your card? The two of diamonds? Look! (Shows the two of diamonds). Guess what? I loathe card tricks and I'm not trying to be funny here, but when I was a kid, I got the Royal Road to Card Magic. Everything you need to perform an impromptu effect with a real deck is in there. I'm willing to bet almost everyone here would have more knowledge about card tricks than me. But even little-old-me knows a way to get out of that hypothetical one. My point is that EVEN doing what I just wrote, still wouldn't convince anyone you are a mentalist. At best, it would be a good trick. Funny Way: I saw a magician when I was a kid who shuffled a deck and pretended he heard someone ask to shuffle the cards. He handed the deck out and asked a person to shuffle it and took it back. "Satisfied", he asked? As soon as the spectator said yes he tossed the deck off stage (cards went everywhere) and pulled out another deck! It's hard to describe, but it was very funny! A GREAT Way: Magician: (Shuffling cards) Spectator: "May I shuffle the cards?" Magician suddenly morphing into Master Mentalist: "Absolutely. (while shuffling). May I ask you a question? I get the impression that you believe I'm using a trick deck or sleight of hand, correct? NO!!! I'm NOT offended. I should have realized that... geez, I'm a mindreader, what the heck was I thinking using a deck of cards! Here, let's use our minds together... IMAGINE a deck of cards. Shuffle them. Go ahead. Please listen closely... I want you to pull out a five card poker hand. You can deal from the top or your can pull out any five cards from anywhere in the deck that is *in your mind*. (Take out a piece of paper and write something down). "Tell everyone what the five cards are" Spectator: "2H, 5S, 8D, JC, AH" Mentalist: "Really? Hmmm. There's no way that could be a trick or stacked deck? NO? I want you to now choose ONE of those cards. Would you like to change your mind? Great. What is it? The Jack of Clubs? Please read my note..." Spectator: (reading) "I believe that a dark haired lady whose last name may be Stebbins will doubt my abilities in a kind manner. She will be shocked when she mentally chooses the Jack of Clubs" What's the BEST way? I don't know. I believe it's personal. What's best for you is best for you. Regarding "control" of an audience. Ask any performer who performs regularly about control. It doesn't exist. At least in the context of a,b,c, events taking place and the audience just going along with it. Forget it. In a play, yes. Spectators come to *watch*. In any type of show where there is audience interaction, forget the control. Only the flexible will survive. Think of it as driving a car. Yes, there is control of the CAR, and having a planned roadmap. But the roads will throw you all kinds of curve balls! Potholes, traffic, road closures, accidents, etc. You must be able to think and actively navigate around that. As an *entertainer* you must not only navigate, but entertain at the same time. Again, I'm not picking on anyone here. If you really believe that you can "control" an audience, go for it! Good luck to you. I believe your time would be better spent mastering outs and multi-track thinking, that's all. Just my opinion. Disagree with me, if you like. I don't mind. Here's a final, slightly off topic thought. Measure what you do. In my stage hypnosis show, I am constantly rating/measuring routines. I rank them one to ten. I'm *constantly* chucking the low ranking routines and replacing them with new. Theoretically, I'll eventually come up with a show that is a perfect ten. In reality, of course, that won't happen. But it most certainly does improve your performance, I assure you. Try this. Do a "mental magic" card trick sometime this week. Then, ask the person if they would like their palm read and read it. Rank the reaction. Come back a year later and ask them what they remembered. Stop doing the lower ranking item. Try it. You'll be a palmist in no-time! I've rambled long enough. Fire up those flame throwers!!!! Cheers. Blair Robertson FREE Newsletter reveals inside money-making secrets of successful mentalists & psychics! www.Mental-List.com |
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts |
Blair:
Interesting post. You make some valid points, and had a lot of constructive words to say. I know you said several times that you don't care if people disagree with you, but I can only presume that you made the post to spark some follow-up posts. (So, here goes.) I'll go on record as saying that the use of cards neither "makes" a mentalist, or vice-versa. Cards are cards. Billets are billets, palms are palms, etc, etc. Either a performer can achieve the impression he wants his audience to have, or he cannot. Most "professional" mentalists just come off as bad magicians doing bad tricks. What makes them "bad" has little to do with their choice of props. Whether or not someone uses the quote-unquote standard apparatus of classical mentalism, or anything else for that matter, is (quite obviously to me) beside the point. Clearly, a much more worthwhile discussion would be what aspects of a performance make for good mentalism, no? You cited a (vague) comparison between a "mental card trick" and reading someone's palm, and made a very general statement implying that one is not only intrinsically stonger than the other, but UNVIERSALLY so, for everyone. I must say that while I'm sure you're speaking from your own experience and frame of reference, I cannot support such a broad generalization. Perhaps you as a performer have a greater talent for "selling" one type of routine over the other. Or, maybe you haven't worked as hard at other aspects of mind-magic entertainment as you have with your readings and hypnosis. But this takes me back to my previous point, which is that it all comes down the the person, doesn't it? I've seen good mental card stuff, and bad mental card stuff, just as I've seen good readers and bad readers. When analyzing any performer's effectiveness, I've NEVER come to the objective conclusion that it was the choice of props that was the real issue. It's never as simple as that. Just my humble opinions, Ben Blau
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
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Jim Robinson Loyal user 260 Posts |
I guess my response would to go into a version of The Lazy Man's Card Trick. This is about the most common theme with a memorized deck. "I'm not only going to let you shuffle but two others as well...." etc. I think if you try to talk someone out of shuffling you may "get away" with it for the time being but they'll remember that they didn't shuffle in the end. If this happens twice, there is a problem of audience management. Period.
Robinson.
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.... He to who this emotion is a stranger ... is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein |
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1908 Special user 882 Posts |
I do not understand something...
First I agree with Mathhew's opinions. What i am doing in such circumstances i just move to something else.There are so many sleights and outs to our knowledge...peeks,switches,passes easy imroptu set-ups,we can make everything we like!So its good to have an excellent presantation for an effect but its kind of fun to think fast on how to move to the next impromtu effect.For me it is a kind of personal challenge to my knowledge of magic to be ready for every situation.Am i wrong??
Don't wait for the perfect moment...Take a moment and make it perfect!!!
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Stuart Cumberland Loyal user 289 Posts |
Hi Ben,
Hey... we can start a mutual admiration club!!! I enjoyed reading your post. I get frustrated with e-communication, because it does not convey emotions properly. So, let me clarify something: I *encourage* people to speak up and disagree with me. Agreeing with me does me little good, selfishly speaking. Opposing thoughts cause me (and others) to THINK. I've had my views changed 180 degrees by folks who had courage to disagree with my admittedly strong opinions. So, thanks for your thoughts! Now, about what you said... Maybe I was unclear, but I am saying that cards carry a stigma. It's hard-wired into a spectators mind. I didn't make that up. And believe me, I've tested it. I'm not a scientist, but I am a strong believer in testing everything. My word certainly isn't "law". I encourage folks here to *test* what I'm saying and discover for yourself. I re-read my own post, to make sure I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. I tried to illustrate TWO examples: 1a. Pull out a deck of cards and ask someone to "pick a card" and BAM, sorry... you are doing a card trick! I don't care if you have it shuffled and you find it by lie-detector, aura, or reading their mind. You may very well blow their mind, but it's still just a cool card trick. (Note, if you are a magician, I'm NOT putting you down. Card tricks would raise the prestige of a magician. My argument is that they are a cement stone to a mentalist). 1b. Do a card trick in the mind of a spectator, and you have a mental miracle. 2. Test. Do the best--and I mean best--card trick in the world and then do a palm reading. Guess what they will remember more? *DON'T* take my word for it. Try it. Test it. Prove it to--not me--but yourself. Again, I'm not trying to pass judgement here. But talking hypothetical doesn't do anything for me. I'm be much more interested in someone going out and trying my solution and coming back with either "Hey Blair, it worked" OR "Hey Blair, it didn't". Whoa! I'm not "picking on" those of you who talk hypothetical... no, no, no. It's just that I can't add to that conversation, is what I'm saying. Ben is correct about the performer, and not the props being the issue... to a degree. By that I mean, theatrically a magician is "allowed" props...cards, wands, bunnies, beautiful assistants and strange magical boxes. But a mentalist, theatrically does what?... he reads minds. No props. Maybe--and I mean maybe--a piece of paper to write something down.. but that's it. But again, prove it to yourself. Do a word association with a friend: magician vs. Mindreader. IF you folks are interested in the theory behind good psychic readings from hard won experience, ask and I just might post it. But it does cut across the grain of "traditional" magician thinking. Cheers Blair FREE Newsletter reveals inside money-making secrets of successful mentalists & psychics! www.Mental-List.com |
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kamu002 New user Honolulu, Hawaii 6 Posts |
Hmmm... I've never as of this writing have encountered this question with a stacked deck *knock on wood*... Usually false cuts, and shuffles while talking seems to satisfy my audience... Then again perhaps you are letting them get a word or two in... How's about you keep another stacked deck in your pocket so when the question is asked, you say sure, and pass the spectator the cards and they begin shuffling... You then say "while you make sure the cards are shuffled I'll..." then produce the other stacked deck you have and get right into the trick without losing a beat.... If the spectator gives you a funny look, tell them to make sure the deck is nice and shuffled, and do a trick with them and that deck later... Hope this was helpful...
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