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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts 
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I only partly agree Payne.
Many people can be astute in some areas of their lives and be absolute simpletons in other areas. I'll check out his book. Given his expertise, there is bound to be some material of interest. Who knows, he may be right here and wrong about evolution. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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John, you sound like someone searching for an answer more than Payne.
Incidently the term "deniers" itself is intended to be a put down and a pathetic attempt to put them in a class with the Hollocost deniers. Payne when all you have is name calling and putting down the other side and false accusations about taking money and attempts to discredit people (somewhat like they tell you to do in "Rules for Radicals) it is not even worth talking to you. You superior attitude and arrogance is not warranted. John, I complain about cap and trade because IT IS the soltion those in power are putting forth. Someone post for me the research that predicts cap and trade will lead to prosperity please.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 12:12, Dannydoyle wrote: http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2......obs.html http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl......tes-jobs http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/nov2008/2008-11-19-091.asp
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Links Danny, please.
That is, links to qualified experts who say that cap and trade is a good idea. Then, if you'd like, links to refutations of these concrete proposals. John Always searching for the truth. What are you searching for?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Payne, I'd hate to see you get carpal tunnel syndrome. From now on, when anyone references a scientist who isn't 100% on board with Global Warming, we'll all just assume that you characterize him "disgruntled."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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Opinions on Henrik Svensmark's work? Here's one piece. What about others who propose warming has stopped, any credibility to these?
Just curious, I have no pig in this pork barrel and most of this stuff makes my head spin.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 09:14, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Sorry, John. Just like your guessing on conclusions regarding gloabal warming (Ooops! I meant to say "climate change"), you are guessing on this also...and you are incorrect on both assumptions and both conclusions. My favorite classes in both high school and university were the many science and math courses I took. I also took a college course in logic and logical reasoning and I know the difference between a correct logical syllogism and an incorrect illogical syllogism. Voting and consensus do not play a part in correct logical reasoning. BTW, I have no problem with acknowleging that the earth goes through periodic climate change and climate reversals. My issue is the fact that the global warming crowd (Ooops!...I meant to say "climate change crowd"), cannot definitively, accurately, and, most importantly, scientifically prove the contribution or extent of man to any such change. I recall the days when "scientists" incorrectly proved that the entire universe revolved around the earth and that the earth was flat. Believing this did not make it so...regardless of how many "scientists" believed both to be true. Nor did the prosecution and persecution of Gallieo and the vote against him change the facts proffered by Gallieo, Copernicus or Kepler. Ptolemy's conclusions were based upon invalid hypotheses and, despite the overwhelming "belief" by the masses of scientists of his day, his beliefs in these regards were still wrong. Scintific truth is not proved by majority vote. (Sorry for this inconvenient truth.) Mike P.S. Again, as Christy so eloquently and tellingly pointed out: "...I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see. Rather, I see a reliance on climate models (useful but never "proof") and the coincidence that changes in carbon dioxide and global temperatures have loose similarity over time. There are some of us who remain so humbled by the task of measuring and understanding the extraordinarily complex climate system that we are skeptical of our ability to know what it is doing and why. As we build climate data sets from scratch and look into the guts of the climate system, however, we don't find the alarmist theory matching observations."
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts
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I don't know enough about this subject to enter into the discussion, but it made me think about something.
Ever since the Global Warming issue started happening, it has seemed to me that - in general - religious conservatives who have an opinion on this subject are of the opinion that Global Warming is (take your choice here) nonexistent, not a big problem, a temporary cycle or trend, etc.... On the other hand, those who are non-religious/non-conservative take, in general, opposing viewpoints on GW. This has just been a casual observation on my part, based on no research. If I'm wrong here, just tell me. 
Do you find this to be true? Or do you find GW to be more of a conservative vs. liberal issue (as I and many of my friends are religious conservatives it could be easy to for me 'see' a religious vs. non-religious component when it may just be more of a conservative vs. liberal type of thing)? I don't know at all the religious or political values of the scientists involved. It is interesting to observe how loyalties in one area can (it has seemed to me, anyway) affect people on an issue such as GW - an issue where it would seem loyalties in other areas should have no place. I freely admit that I can look at a cast of characters in a debate, and at times have to prevent myself from going on auto-pilot, rooting for one side simply because they share my opinions in another area.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 13:15, Chessmann wrote: There might be some of that. But, personally, I think it is more a case of it being portrayed that way in the media due to how the media is structured. When I say media, I mean both the mainstream and the non-mainstream media. I believe the truth is that many religious people, including many evangelical Christians, are very concerned about the global warming. The Vatican has come out and made a number of statements warning about the dangers of global warming. For instance this message from a couple of years back: http://www.catholic.org/international/in......id=24053 "Global warming threatens world’s security, existence, Vatican tells U.N." And evangelical Pat Robertson has declared himself “a convert” on global warming: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51379 "Robertson joins the chorus of evangelical leaders who have raised the issues of global warming and the environment to a place once reserved for abortion and school prayer by Christian activists. As WorldNetDaily reported, 85 Christian leaders signed an Evangelical Climate Initiative, unveiled Feb. 8, that called for government action to deal with global warming. Signers of the Evangelical Climate Initiative included, among others, Rick Warren, pastor and author of "The Purpose Driven Life," Rich Stearns, president of World Vision, Commissioner Todd Bassett, national commander of The Salvation Army, and David Neff, executive editor of Christianity Today." On the other hand, I personally know a number of atheists who are skeptical about GW.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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I think that you are right, Chessmann. But I don't think that religion is the main ingredient. In the US especially, there is a tendency for certain politically conservative groups to hold great influence over certain religiously conservative groups. I think that you are seeing the influence of highly organized political agitation rather than religious conviction.
In Canada, we see a lot more "left-leaning" politics coming from the churches. But there is a steady increase in US-based protestant churches and a decline in the more Anglo-European-based ("traditional") denominations, so I suspect we're not far off your situation. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 12:48, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: As am I John, but till we get past the Payne types who are always the loudest voice in any debate we get nowhere. Using derogotory terms and such to lable the other side is just a way to get a radical or a conservative agenda across. It gets us nowhere near the truth of the matter. And I can NOT provide links to anyone who thinks cap and trade is anything but a tax hike and redistribution. Which is exactly what Payne is looking for anyhow. Too many people have too much and it upsets him.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 13:52, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, this post of yours is rather disingenuous. You haven't been an angel in the discussion. Several times you've been caught putting words in other people's mouths. You accused me of calling you names, which I never did. You labeled people here as followers of Saul Alinsky. And so on.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Here Danny is a 2009 peer-reviewed article about Cap and Trade, written by two economists at Duke University.
While they acknowledge problems and debates in the issue, these experts certainly don't think it's necessarily a disaster. Of course, this should't surprise us. General theories are one thing; the Devil is always in the details. Happy reading. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2957 Posts
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I read the first few pages of this thread, but not all of it.
To me it makes no sense to not do anything to help us preserve our society. We are not above or beyond our environment. Now I don't think climate change is something to be "believed in", its either happening or not. I can't help but laugh when I hear people who know nothing about a subject call the experts morons. To me, it seems the evidence plainly shows climate change is occuring. Whether mankind is forcing it to happen seems to be the real issue. It seems quite obvious to me that if you extract fossil fuels from the ground and burn it you get and over abundance of carbond dioxide. If you combine that with destruction of forests and over-population, we probably are contributing to the change. Regardless of whether we are responsible for the change, creating an energy efficient society that runs on renewable energy would be a great thing. Fuels are limited and won't last forever. But of course, as Americans, we wait until things directly affect us to change our habits. Limiting pollution and repopulating the forests would do wonders for our quality of air, water, and food. When it comes down to it, it's the green in people's (and corporation's) wallets are affecting public perception of real issues that need to be tended to. Personally, I think it would be a lot of fun to crank up our energy use to its maximum capacity and see what happens. While we're at it we can aim the exhaust fumes at Glenn Beck's house. |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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David,
Are laws not already in place to limit pollution and repopulate forests? And if you think overloading the system would be "fun", how much damage do you think would be caused by it? Sure sounds responsible to me. I know of others who wanted to "overload the system," as well. "But of course, as Americans, we wait until things directly affect us to change our habits." So, it all comes down to whether Americans change? I didn't know that one country could save the world.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Besides, America changes all the time. Like all nations, American changes some things quickly and other things slowly.
MagicSanta hasn't brought it up in this thread (but he has in others), but the cross-border cleanup of the Great Lakes in the past 50 years is a great testimony to what can be done with effort and cooperation. While it would be easy to complain that the process could have been faster, and it could have been more complete, and Canada could have done more, and the US could have done more, blah blah blah, the fact remains that action was taken and tangible results are there for anyone who cares to look. John John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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Canada can always do more.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-01 14:42, Michael J. Douglas wrote: When that one country alone consumes 30% of the worlds resources anything we can do to reduce consumption will go far in helping the rest of the world.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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So, you're saying the rest of the world consumes twice as much? Sounds like they should've started reducing consumption years ago.
Just kidding with you, Payne.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-11-28 01:57, Payne wrote: You are right, in just a few pages Payne, we have gone from 24% to 30%! Things are getting bad and seem to be getting worse just within the time we have been having our discussion. Meanwhile here is a link from the UK telegraph that tells how the BBC deals with climate news. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environ......man.html Oh here is a link to that "disgruntled" "discredited" Roy Spencer. Oh yea PHD. http://www.drroyspencer.com/2009/11/my-t......-debate/
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Posted: Dec 1, 2009 04:16 pm 
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