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Dannydoyle
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On 2009-12-03 00:06, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:47, Tom Bartlett wrote:
What state has soldier costing One million dollars per soldier per year x 30,000 = $30,000,000,000?

That's the estimated cost of each soldier sent to Afghanistan:

"While President Obama’s decision about sending more troops to Afghanistan is primarily a military one, it also has substantial budget implications that are adding pressure to limit the commitment, senior administration officials say.

The latest internal government estimates place the cost of adding 40,000 American troops and sharply expanding the Afghan security forces, as favored by Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top American and allied commander in Afghanistan, at $40 billion to $54 billion a year, the officials said.

Even if fewer troops are sent, or their mission is modified, the rough formula used by the White House, of about $1 million per soldier a year, appears almost constant."


"Nation building" is not cheap! Tough figure but it does not shock me at all.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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On 2009-12-02 23:57, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:47, Tom Bartlett wrote:
What state has soldier costing One million dollars per soldier per year x 30,000 = $30,000,000,000?

The United States.
Federal aid to states has been severely cut in the last decade.
Military spending increases every year.


We can get into it again but it not a great arguement. Hate the military all you like, but spending as a percentage of GDP is down to about little more than 1/2 it was under Kennedy.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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On 2009-12-03 00:09, Tom Bartlett wrote:

The discussion is about the individual states not the US.

Feel free to discuss whatever aspect of the debt you like ... in the first post in this thread I was talking about debt overall for various individual nations, not individual states in the U.S., but whatever.

I was really more interested in this subject at the international level anyway, I didn't really want to focus on just the U.S.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Speaking of the cost of sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, and correct me if I am wrong, but I read that this won't even happen unless Republicans vote for it as the Democrats are split on the issue.

So do you (you being whomever chooses to answer) think the Republicans should take a fiscally responsible approach and actually vote against it?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Tom Bartlett
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On 2009-12-03 00:24, balducci wrote:
Speaking of the cost of sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, and correct me if I am wrong, but I read that this won't even happen unless Republicans vote for it as the Democrats are split on the issue.

So do you (you being whomever chooses to answer) think the Republicans should take a fiscally responsible approach and actually vote against it?
Absolutely and completely dismantle the military and all our defense systems wile we are at it. We will need the money we save to provide health care for all the causalities from the new wave of terrorist bombing by radical Muslims here in the United States.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
Close.Up.Dave
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:32, Tom Bartlett wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:24, balducci wrote:
Speaking of the cost of sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, and correct me if I am wrong, but I read that this won't even happen unless Republicans vote for it as the Democrats are split on the issue.

So do you (you being whomever chooses to answer) think the Republicans should take a fiscally responsible approach and actually vote against it?
Absolutely and completely dismantle the military and all our defense systems wile we are at it. We will need the money we save to provide health care for all the causalities from the new wave of terrorist bombing by radical Muslims here in the United States.


I think you're more likely to get hit by a wave of radical Christians
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:24, balducci wrote:
Speaking of the cost of sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, and correct me if I am wrong, but I read that this won't even happen unless Republicans vote for it as the Democrats are split on the issue.

So do you (you being whomever chooses to answer) think the Republicans should take a fiscally responsible approach and actually vote against it?


I do not think they should vote for it. Either declare war or get out. I am certain our president has more information than I do and I actually have faith that he is acting in good faith. (I really think this) I think he does not like military action at all and would do all he could to avoid it.

I in all honesty do not see this as such a "fiscal" issue as they have no trouble with the omnibus spending, stimulous, health care and another stimulous. That could fight the war for 100 years. (I am not sure about the year number, it is just an example, don't hold me to it)

All the spending has to come to an end. I have no real idea if this is the right place. The president must have info we don't have right? So why not cut back on some of the TARP funds, or the other stuff I mentioned first?

I think Obama has found out that it is easier to be a candidate than a president. Easy to sit and make noise about not being in wars, than it is to get out of them.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagiClyde
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Here is a link to the PBS series The Ascent of Money based on the book by Niall Ferguson. It is fascinating reading, even if some of the financial info is a little thick.

What it all comes down to is that the debt is unsustainable. Governments in financial crisis usually resort to at least one of the following to curb debt.

First is printing more money to pay it off. Ultimately, this only results in hyperinflation and a total devaluation of the currency. This is what happened in Germany in the 1920's.

Second is to raise taxes or sell bonds to pay the debt. Guess who the losers are at the end of this one? Whole governments have had civil wars and revolutions after making this move. Ironically, our country was founded on a civil war due to unjust taxation. Today, we refer to it as a Revolutionary War and the tax on tea, resulting in a very well known party being hosted on a British ship in Boston

Default on the loan. The French monarchs did this several times in the 1700's, which is one of the reasons they had a revolution.

I really recommend reading The Ascent of Money. It is a real eye opener. We are on a really bad roller coaster ride from which nobody can get off and which will severely cripple a lot of people when (not if) it crashes.
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balducci
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Re: Ascent of Money, I watched a couple of episodes and I've read most of the book.

Niall Ferguson gets a fair bit of attention from the media as does Roubini, but really neither one said has anything that many others have not been saying for years.

You should watch IOUSA if you haven't already.

Speaking of U.S. money printing and hyperinflation, it will be interesting to see what gold is selling at in a year or two. Is its increasing price deserved? Or is gold a new bubble?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagiClyde
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Speaking of U.S. money printing and hyperinflation, it will be interesting to see what gold is selling at in a year or two. Is its increasing price deserved? Or is gold a new bubble?


Another case of "tulip mania"?

What interested me about Niall Ferguson's book was understanding how money has arisen to such a state of importance and why things are the way they are now. You can't really know where you're going unless you understand where you've been. That's what his book did for me.

By the way, do you have a link to IOUSA?
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balducci
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You can read about, and watch an abbreviated version, of the movie at this site:

http://www.iousathemovie.com/

I think you can find it in larger format on youtube / googlevideo.

It is a little controversial ... some people were questioning some of the numbers. Then again, the movie is a year or two old and things have not been getting any better.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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So speaking of the debt, here is a graphic (mind you, the numbers are from earlier this year and are probably a little out of date but not by that much) depicting each nation's per capita debt:

Image


It really illustrates the scope of the debt problem some nations are faced with.

[I see some posts were deleted from this thread. I can't see why the above graphic would be objectionable to anyone, so I hope it can stay.]
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:57, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:47, Tom Bartlett wrote:
What state has soldier costing One million dollars per soldier per year x 30,000 = $30,000,000,000?

The United States.
Federal aid to states has been severely cut in the last decade.
Military spending increases every year.


We can get into it again but it not a great arguement. Hate the military all you like, but spending as a percentage of GDP is down to about little more than 1/2 it was under Kennedy.


I'm not sure that comparison to GDP is relevant. What is more relevant is comparison to the total US budget, and the absolute figure for military related spending, which for FY 2009 is estimated to be roughly a trillion dollars.

http://www.militarybudget.info/Political_FederalBudget.html
landmark
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:04, Tom Bartlett wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:57, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:47, Tom Bartlett wrote:
What state has soldier costing One million dollars per soldier per year x 30,000 = $30,000,000,000?

The United States.
Federal aid to states has been severely cut in the last decade.
Military spending increases every year.
What! I can't believe you’re not in lockstep with Obama!


I don't know where you get that idea, as I agree with very few of Obama's policies. I see him as someone who continues with Bush's corporatist policies. But such is the state of affairs in this country that Obama is seen as a "socialist." If only. In any other democracy he would be classified as a right-winger based on actual policy rather than rhetoric.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2009-12-04 19:31, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-03 00:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:57, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-12-02 23:47, Tom Bartlett wrote:
What state has soldier costing One million dollars per soldier per year x 30,000 = $30,000,000,000?

The United States.
Federal aid to states has been severely cut in the last decade.
Military spending increases every year.


We can get into it again but it not a great arguement. Hate the military all you like, but spending as a percentage of GDP is down to about little more than 1/2 it was under Kennedy.


I'm not sure that comparison to GDP is relevant. What is more relevant is comparison to the total US budget, and the absolute figure for military related spending, which for FY 2009 is estimated to be roughly a trillion dollars.

http://www.militarybudget.info/Political_FederalBudget.html


I think it is pretty relevant.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Feature......ror.aspx
Danny Doyle
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landmark
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Why? The GDP is not a measure of what taxpayers are financing, which is the issue here.
Dannydoyle
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How much we produce VS how much goes to the military is not relevant? Are you kidding?

Just dollars spent of course go up. The price of milk goes up as a dollar amount, but that milk VS what it costs as a percentage of your pay is what is important.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Gallon of Milk at Fred Meyer: $1.59
Fifth of bourbon at a state run liquor store: $21.95
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landmark
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How much is produced is not the same as how much is spent by taxpayers. Apples and Oranges. The meaningful comparison to military spending is total federal spending. The most recent figures I've see have it between 30 and 40%.

If you'd like to carry your milk analogy further, the government's "pay" is the total tax revenue, not the GDP.

GDP is the aggregate worth of goods and service produced domestically. It basically tells you the size of the economy and is a rough estimate of standard of living. It's useful for comparing certain aspects of the economies of different countries.
balducci
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One thing to note (from off the web):

For FY 2009, Department of Defense spending amounts to 4.8% of GDP. ... This calculation does NOT take into account some other defense-related non-DOD spending, such as Veterans Affairs, Homeland Security, and interest paid on debt incurred in past wars, which HAS increased even as a percentage of the national GDP.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2010/assets/hist.pdf
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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