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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts 
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I attended two 'non -hypnosis' shows by Martin yesterday (we both ended the evening with a fine meal of pheasant, red wine, fine ale and some lovely pudding).
Interesting guy. He opens up with the statement that in all stage hypnosis there is no such thing as hypnosis. No one gets hypnotised... ever. Because it simply does not exist. Then goes on to explain that all so-called hypnosis is merely that of: Suggestion, Peer Pressure and Authority. His 'lecture' lasts around 25 mins before he gives the call to stage. Once they're there he does a self fall-back to the chairs for those seated ('feel that force pushing you backwards'). Thay ALL fall and everyone laughs. Then he really surprised me by going immediately in to the handclasp (no other tests). Think about that. What a brave start: "There's no such thing as hypnosis I'm merely going to make some suggestions and use an authorative voice and through peer pressurs you'll WANT to do what I say. You won't know WHY you want to do it. You just WILL". The handclasp had around an 85% success rate (including those sat in the audience!). After they were all stuck he merely told them they were NOT hypnotised (something he kept reminding them throughout the entire show) and one by one told them their hands were now free (which included an instruction to individual audience members, some 90 feet away) and they all released immediately. This was a boarding school by the way and the averege age was around 16-17 ish. After the handclasp he went straight for all phenomena normally linked to a hyp show. The difference was he kept telling them 'but remember your not and never were hypnotised, because there is no such thing'. Extremely interesting when you consider there was no hype and no expectation, on the contrary he made it clear that they would NOT go into hypnosis. There was of course a whole smattering of 'hypno-intent' in the air and all good mentalists would recognise the 'witch doctor technique' in his speech, intentional or not. All in all I have to say one brilliant (actually two) great hypnosis show by a consumate professional. For those who are not aware it was Martin Taylor who trained Derren Brown (He has been officially credited by DB). So, wow, something, whilst being precisely the same, was in fact completely different. I have to say I loved it and will consider this form of presentation personally for the likes of house parties and barbeques. Should you get the chance to see Martin perform I strongly recommend you go along. Great show with a truly massive ovation at its end. bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts
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Thank you for sharing, Bobser.
I only recently became familiar with Martin's work. There's another fellow, James Rolph, who does something similar and produces hypnotic phenomena without trance. Waking hypnosis (whether real or imagined), Telepathy in Action type suggestions and other 'no trance/it's NOT hypnosis' feats have featured heavily in my programs for a number of years now. In the forthcoming 'Thought Veil' I teach examples of how to put on a full hypnosis show without hypnosis, trance, relaxation, "sleep" or having eyes closed ever occuring. A very large section deals with how to produce 'trance-like states' and hypnotic-type phenomena with our participants in their normal, every day awareness. This is another side of hypnosis, suggestion and psychological performance art that very few have ventured into at this point. The more people I see working along these lines (such as James and Martin) the more excited I become. While I definitely promote the values and benefits of trance work and altered states in my own performances more often than I don't, the type of performance that you're speaking about here and have experienced recently has many benefits, special qualities and practical values above and beyond the old, dated trance-hypnosis models that many continue to follow (myself included) and their potentials haven't yet been fully realized. It's an exciting time to be a (non) hypnotist. Watching the videos of Martin in action, one would never tell the difference between what he does and what the public normally expects from a stage hypnotist! -J
"Join my update list here!" http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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25 mins is a long time for a "lecture". I would imagine he was building up expectation.
I don't know about today and what you have seen or what you do - but always every hypnotist I ever saw and every show I have ever done started almost immediately with a handclasp. I have never ever done any additional tests. Never needed to. This has always been standard. Plus additional suggestions that they can only ever be unstuck if they come to the stage. And remember just because someone tells you you aren't hypnotised doesn't mean you aren't. All he has done is attach another "overt" meaning to an ongoing phenomena. But otherwise its the same. Its hypnosis. If was different he wouldn't need to the tests and all the steps. In fact he may well have suggested that they were hypnotised by using a negative. "Don't think of a blue tree". And of course it conviently reframes what he is doing in terms of anxiety and concerns about hypnosis. >>>>>Watching the videos of Martin in action, one would never tell the difference between what he does and what the public normally expects from a stage hypnotist! <<<<< that's because there is no difference. Let him do a full show without mentioning the word hypnosis in his marketing or during the show. Or the usual process. I will bet you anything it won't work. Peer pressure and authority wouldn't need hypnotic conditioning if that were the case. Using hypnosis either directly or as a negative suggests hypnosis. Its also an attempt to dissociate from the mainstream problems. Nothing more. Its just different patter for the same thing. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Of course Bobser what ever you do - do NOT even consider that I am right. Don't stop and think about or believe what I say is Not only probable but most likely the correct explanation.
Because I wouldn't tell you that this is true there is no point - only you can decide that it is. And if you don't decide its true then Your Not convinced. And that's ok. that's one of the things I love about hypnosis...its ok Not to believe. And it still works....doesn't it? |
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Roy Elite user Israel 486 Posts
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Martin Invited me to his show two week ago and I just loved it!
The idea of non-hypnosis show is brilliant and solves the problem with some states stupid laws (like in Israel) and the need for insurance. In my opinion most of the hypnotists think that they MUST use pre-talk, induction, trance etc. to perform hypnosis, while it's all actually theater, directing and staging. Trust me: I cause my 'subjects' to forget their names, not able to stand up, not able to talk, laugh with no reason etc. without puling their hands and shout 'sleep'. It's like in the movies: If a car crushes does it 'must' to explode? Can really the hero and the villain fist fight for 10 minutes without their hair doesn't get messed? Why does the cop always get information from his source in a strip club? Hope you understand what I mean…. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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>>>>In my opinion most of the hypnotists think that they MUST use pre-talk, induction, trance etc. to perform hypnosis, while it's all actually theater, directing and staging. Trust me: I cause my 'subjects' to forget their names, not able to stand up, not able to talk, laugh with no reason etc. without puling their hands and shout 'sleep'. <<<<
These are all light trance phenomena. if I were to do a show that consited only of the above they would ask for their money back. It would be a tedious show. No disrespect but a hypnosis show generally consists of something much more than that where I come from. Your description is not a hypnosis show from where I come from. It may well work brilliantly as part of a mental show. But it would bomb as a hypnosis show over here. I doubt you do these things immediately. You prep your volunteers before hand. That is a pre talk no matter how you do it. Martin took 25 mins. that's longer than most stage hypnotists I know. Its the same process. having followed some explantions and blogs on "no trance" hypnosis...it pretty clear what they mean is no "formal trance induction". That doesn't mean to say that that trance is not present. Everything else they desrcribe is IDENTICLE to hypnotic induction and conditioning. Its Identicle. There is nothing new its the same old same. Even termination of the conditioning process is almost word by word the same. There is nothing new here apart from the deciet that this is different from straight forward hypnosis. Its not. It just boils down to whether you believe hypnosis exists or not. And that is a futile argument. Since there are so many variables on belief and defintions on what hypnosis actually is. So there is no point in going there. I personally think that insurance is not only a good thing but a responsable thing to protect your audience. The cost of insurance is very little if you are doing regular shows. And if the law is enforced properly it keeps the cowboys out of the game. And that can only be a good thing for both the industry and the public. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts
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Hi Mindpunisher. It is quite clear that some people do hypnosis shows without any hypnosis. Kreskin was not the only one. The TIA routine is quite clearly not hypnosis.
Perhaps you do a hand clasp as a test in every show, but I rarely use it. I never much liked it, so I dropped it. Some shows I do no tests, some I do a few. It depends on my mood and the feel of the audience. There are many ways of getting compliance in your subjects. Instead of getting on our high horse when we hear about guys like Martin Taylor, we should be celebrating the fact that there are so many ways of putting on a good show. I would love to catch this show, and I know the day will come when I do explicetly non-hypnosis shows. Thanks for the great review Bobser.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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I am not getting on any horse. I am merely pointing out that the process is the same.
Its not clear at least not to me Tony. I don't believe you can do a hypnosis show without hypnosis. Its not a hypnosis show its something else. Where we differ is around the definition of what hypnosis actually is. But we have been down this road before. There is no point going back there. Call it what you will but the process is the same. That is all I am pointing out. Nothing is really different only the framing of whats happening. It still doesn't explain full amnesia fir two hours being on stage. And the majority I have kept in touch with have no recollection weeks after the event. Just because what is the normal "ritual" for getting people into suggestable states and conditioning are not used doesn't change the fact its still the very same process. Call it trance or no trance its still the same state the language you chose to use doesn't change anything. I personally don't believe there is such thing as a test. A hand clasp or any "test" is the start of the conditioning or trance induction process. Or no trance induction process. What makes this all very suspect id the continual use of hypnosis and trance but just putting a negative in front of it. Classic hypnotic language. It changes nothing. There is no "new" way to do shows its the same old way but with slightly different patter that's all. Whether you use a handclasp or not as part of your conditioning or "trance induction" or no "trance induction"...doesn't really matter you still go through a series of steps in order to create the conditioning. And they are for the most part identicle. This is a well worn road and is my very last post on the subject. |
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Alexander Marsh Inner circle England 1191 Posts
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It's also a superb way around legal issues!
My stuff: AlexanderMarshMentalism.co.uk
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-02 18:54, mindpunisher wrote: Believe me, his opening 25 mins was mainly comedy and had NO pre-talk in any way. The fall back thing was a bit of fun. He simply went straight into a handclasp (eyes wide open) and then straight into phenomena. Don't take anything away from this guy. He's excellent. I did actually suggest to him that he's wrong about non-hypnosis and that he's simply a brilliant hypnotist... which brought an interesting shrug. LOL. Also interestingly enough as a guy claiming hypnosis doesn't exist he gets more hypnosis work than anyone I've met. Now you just gotta' love that!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts
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Really glad someone I know has been to see the show. It is hard not to reverse engineer it all into ones hypnosis explanation of choice, but as social compliance is one of the standards there is no need. Ignoring the power of prestige would be silly.
Regarding tests, typically I only do one when doing stage stuff. In fact these days I often drop it completely and just do a solid call up. As McGill suggests those who come up cannot not respond - the call up is a suggestion like any other and they will have to get up. Like moths sailing a ship. They see the lighthouse, they know what it means, they know they shouldn't... So make sure you repeat this call. James Tripp is now running courses in the UK on his no trance hypnosis work. I throughly recommend spendiong some time in his company. He knows many things, has the flexibility of an NLPer (a good one) the intent of a hypnotist(a good one) and the manners of a true gent. He will bend you in two with his mind. http://hypnosiswithouttrance.wordpress.c......gorized/ Get on it. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-03 03:42, bobser wrote: Bobser I am not taking anything away from anyone. I am only saying the "process" is the same. It still is a "pretalk" of sorts. Just being at a "hypnosis/non hypnosis show" is a suggestion or presupposition that some expected thing will happen. He built it up in whtever way he uses, But he stuck to a process. " I am going to hypnotise you without hypnotising you" "you are not going to go into trance" Is a suggestion that you will. I've had a look at James's blog. All I can see is hypnosis there is practically no difference. James may be excellent that's not taking anything away from him. The only thing that's different is people do not close their eyes and relax as part of the induction. However if he is an NLP Trainer he will have been trained into the definition of everyday trance. Which is the one I buy into as it gives you the most flexibility. "No trance hypnosis" is really a marketing ploy. A gimmik There really is no difference. It still about conditioning and compounding suggestion. At the end of the day do what your heart tells you. Nobody really knows what hypnosis is anyway. If Martin is getting tonnes of work and he is happy then great for him. I stick with a process that works for me that involves the handclasp in about five to 10 mins into the show. Depending upon how rowdy they are. I have tried various options its what I prefer. What I teach business people involves "trance" but not as the majority would define it. At the end of the day its semantics. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts
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I just looked at Martin's Videos I think hes great. Im not surprised he gets lots of bookings and perhaps he's right from a marketing point of view.
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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Can't disagree too much with what MP says.
Ant said: [quote]As McGill suggests those who come up cannot not respond - the call up is a suggestion like any other and they will have to get up. Like moths sailing a ship. They see the lighthouse, they know what it means, they know they shouldn't... For the first part (those who come up cannot not resond) I think is complete tosh (Sorry Mr. McGill) But I simply loved the line: "they see the lighthouse, they know what it means, they know they shouldn't..." I don't get to LOL too much reading text but that certainly did it for me. Beautiful!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-12-02 17:32, TT2 wrote: Excellent, thanks for sharing Candin
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts
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Quote:
Then you need some Milton Jones in your life. 'Militant Feminists. I take my hat off to them. They don't like that'. Why would they take your suggestion for a handstick but not your suggestion to come up? Ant
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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[quote]On 2009-12-03 15:09, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Quote:
Why would they take your suggestion for a handstick but not your suggestion to come up? Fair question. And the answer is (or one of the answers is) that the suggestion for the handstick is given to those who HAVE ALREADY taken the initial suggestion to come up. Also remember that many do NOT take the suggestion to come up but go into hypnosis whilst sat in the audience as they accept the (2nd) suggestion to do the handclasp. Also we are talking here about 'them' as if 'they' are all the same (very 'lemming-ish'). However they're not. They're all different. And they may be different on a different day under a different hypnotist. That's why none of us really KNOW 'what it's all about'. Braid and Esdaile didn't. Neither did McGill, Silver or anyone else. If they did they'd have written the definitive book and that would be the end of it. But... it's never been written... as yet. I find it extremely interesting in here in 'You Are Getting Sleepy' reading constantly highly experieneced hypnotists totally disagreeing with each other. I also enjoy watching myself and how my beliefs get totally changed every so often.... but always through my own collective personal experiences. I don't think it can truly happen any other way. In fact I think I'll write a book about this stuff.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts
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Quote:
So you are agreeing that people come up because of the 'suggestion' to come up? I think you will find most hypnotists do the handlock on the entire audience while they are still sat in their seats. They use it as coercion. This is actually not permitted in the model conditions of the Hypnosis Act since its review. Anthony P.S Interesting that all Scottish Men were once Scotch Eggs. M Jones
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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No I'm not agreeing that they come up because of the suggestion to come up.
I'm rather saying that they accept the hanclasp suggestion because they're already up there (although I do get what you mean & it could be taken that I think that). But there's exceptions to the rules all over the place. Some come up but don't stick together, some don't come up but their hands ARE stuck, etc etc etc. Didn't know about The Hypnosis Act review. I always wait to hear what Mr. Royle says about it. Seemingly the good doctor has friends in parliament and continually writes to them regarding what's going on in our streets. Nice to know someone's watching over us.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts
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Hi Bobser,
I suggest your intention is to make your suggestions land prior to the handclasp. Check out the beginning of Act of Imagination by Enrique Enriquez for some ideas in this regard. Yes the 1952 Act was favorably reviewed in the nineties. And yes, Dr. Jon Royale. Bless him. However, for a more rational look at the law I suggest Dr Sammy Prince is the one to watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeyF-kLQbnM Ant
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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Posted: Dec 2, 2009 09:40 pm 
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