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JoyJoy
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I know you meant "Kevin as in Kevin James".
But I only am asking, because I did see the monitor-prop at Glenn´s page and at the snowtimebox´s page for several years. And it is the first time now (means years later) that it showed up on Kevins page. And hiding a fan makes it not a rip-off yet (if you mean that with "technology"). To hide it now afterwards in a present - yes that would be one or in a barstool now, etc...
So when did Kevin come up with the monitor and when did Glenn and when did the snowtimebox company come up with it? That would be the necessary facts.
JasonBaney
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Unfortunately the basis for your reasoning is incorrect. The method (which are not supposed to be revealed in the general Café forums) is what is important here, not the effect.

The fact is Kevin was the first to use a motorized or electronic means of propulsion and holds that method to be his intellectual property no matter what item you conceal it in. He has gone to great lengths to protect this and the magic fraternity worldwide recognizes this as one of his creations.

Many people do, and have done a snowstorm, but for Kevin it is one of his signature pieces. The reason is his method, plain and simple. Simply because he made his method commercially available to the magic fraternity does not mean he gave anyone the right to sell it. Glenn and Snowtime have created nothing. They have done nothing except steal his idea and method.

Kevin has sold animators for over 10 years. In that time we have put the technology in every kind of conceivable item. Just because you don't see it listed on the website doesn't mean jack. Personally I know that there were custom speaker/monitor models made way before I designed and started building the Animator 4; which was several years ago. Since then I have custom built them into all sorts of things including books, plants, trash cans, stairs and even a bowl of water. Now you have the necessary facts.
RVH Magic
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I know for a fact that Kevin James build his snow animator system in a speaker/monitor (for the Amazing Jonathan show)way before Glenn or the snowtime box company had theirs.

And like Jason says: it doesn't matter where you hide it... it's still Kevins creation!

Without kevin James we still would be using a chinese fan for this effect without a beautiful story line or without the additions of the snow machines to make it bigger!
hugmagic
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I support Kevin's intellectual property and there is no doubt that he caused a lot of rethinking on snowstorms.

But as a matter of historical reference and one that I am sure Kevin would agree with, the Abbott's Super Balloon used a mechanism for propulsion many years ago. I have seen that unit built into a lot of stuff.
Just a reference and nothing more.

Kevin is a good friend and I support his ideas 100%.

Richard
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sly2272
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Kevins great, props are first class all the way.
JoyJoy
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Quote:
On 2009-12-12 07:17, Rafael (Belgium) wrote:
I know for a fact that Kevin James build his snow animator system in a speaker/monitor (for the Amazing Jonathan show)way before Glenn or the snowtime box company had theirs.

Now that´s an argument. Thanks! Than the others are rip-offs. Yes!

(Only as a side note: In my opinion it matters, where you hide it. At least it is also possible to argue like that:
1st: When you hide a person, it also matters where you hide it. Also if you hide a never before hidden animal etc., the hiding box matters.
2nd: For making it stormy (also with snow) at a theatre stage, it is a really old and established technique to use hidden mechanical devices (sometimes obvious - sometimes perfectly hidden in the setting). So that´s not the new thing...)

Well naturally it is a great idea to take the little step and use it for a magical illusion and adding the other ideas. I agree totally.

And btw. (to not evoke a wrong thought) all here know me hopefully as one of the big fighters against rip-offs. I decline them totally. I am angry about all knowingly rip-off builders and customers for their ugly behaviour and don´t work with anyone who keep using only one rip-off.
In this case the deciding argument for me is the date (!) - well and Rafael assured that.
I hope my english is good enough to cause no misunderstanding.
Hansel
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The snow speaker is on my wish list!
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timsonefelt
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While Mr. James may have designed the speaker for Jonathan before Glenn's model was on the market, Glenn's speaker was on the market before the KJ model. I spoke with Mr. James about this recently at Magic Live. Kevin feels that anyone who uses a motorized blower in any method is ripping him off. If that were the case we'd not have a lot of the magic we do today, and as Richard Hughes put it above, Kevin would be knocking off Abbotts since they used a motorized prop to animate a balloon. Along the lines of Mr. James' thinking, this would be the same - it doesn't matter what's animated, whether it's a balloon or paper confetti, the idea is the same. Mr. James argument was that Glenn used the same method (a motorized prop) he just put it in a different casing. Sounds the same for me. I can say with 100% confidence that if Mr. James had the speaker on the market, Glenn would not have released his.

I realize that Mr. James has been truly ripped off on occasion, but this just isn't the case here. Again, if we all hold true to Mr. James' thinking on this, we wouldn't have such tricks as:
- Multiple uses for a Thumb Tip - because it's using a fake thumb like the first person
- Multiple uses for a change bag - because it was first used for ??
- Multiple methods for cut and restored rope
- multiple card sleights that accomplish the same thing (pass vs. side steal for bringing selected card to the top - they accomplish the same thing)
- Multiple methods for bill in lemon
- Mental Epic, because it's the one ahead principal, which was used before, just in a different 'costume'
- Multiple snake basket effects
- Card or borrowed object in impossible location - just because it's in a mint box versus a card box - it's still the same trick, just a different box
- Torn and Restored newspaper - many different versions, but it's all the same trick
- no self contained color changing silks because there was first a dye tube



Outside magic:
-Daimler and/or Benz invented the automobile - so Ford, GM, etc. can't manufacture them
-Henry Ford's first assembly line - can't use that even if you manufacture a different product with it - it's his idea.
-No fluorescent light bulbs, because Edison made an incandescent one. Sure it's different, but it's the same as the speaker discussion because it uses electricity to make an artificial light source
- No incandescent blub from Edison because we have fire from the cavemen to give us light when it's dark - same thing again.

I realize this is getting absurd, but no more than the discussion above that just because Mr. James put a motorized mechanism inside 'SOMETHING,' it gives him propriety over someone putting a similar mechanism in something else. The argument just doesn't hold water.

Mr. Strange thought outside the box and did something different. So when someone furthers an idea or thought they get ridiculed and flamed on this discussion board. Mr. James didn't have the speaker on the market until after Glenn's. I challenge everyone to think about the magic they perform (when they're not busy flaming people here) and see how much material in their act doesn't make them a hypocrite by the standards in the arguments posted in Mr. James' defense.

Respectfully,
Tim Sonefelt
hugmagic
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Tim's points are well taken. Glen is an upfront guy and would never steal anything.

The key point here that may open up an argument without a solution is "intellectual property". I am sure that Kevin has inspired many to think outside of the box. I have no reason to doubt he also made a speaker snowstorm in the past, possibly before Glen. I have made many unique types of flower things but never marketed them. I sincerely believe that Glen came up with this speaker idea on his own as a natural progression of his thinking process. There have been many other uses of speakers in magic over the years. Blackstone Jr. used one for years. Kevin has come up with many ways to use his system. Because as he works it, he finds different performance requirements and pros and cons to each unit. I have been with Kevin on his use of at 3 of units in performance. There are definitely pros and cons to each. Jason can also attest to this fact also.

I respect Kevin, Glen and Tim, all greatly. I know all three are upfront guys. I hope that Glen and Kevin can someday talk through this.

With the greatest respect for all concerned,

Richard
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JNeal
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Along with Richard Hughes' example of the Abbott's balloon effect, there is another (apparently forgotten) example of a motorized fan to animate or float an object.

The effect of the "floating butterflies" that we commonly associate with the use of a hand held fan was 're-worked' in the 1960's by the well known cabaret performer Dominique with a small motorized fan ...inside a guitar!

JNeal
visit me @ JNealShow.com
timsonefelt
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I wanted to post a couple more 'not the inventor of but . . .' items here that are more specific and direct - Just to make the point more concrete for those who question only Glenn Strange:

- Card sword with an umbrella is still card sword
- Coin in bottle with bottle that appears to do amazing things is still coin in bottle

Those are VERY original takes on old plots in magic, but if you stick with Mr. James' thinking about the motorized air to move confetti, they're rip offs of the original card sword and coin in bottle. Please hear me correctly - I'm NOT saying Mr. James ripped off anyone. He's one of the most creative minds in magic - but not the ONLY one. There are OTHER creative people too and when an idea comes up somewhere else, people should not jump to conclusions that something is simply a rip off.

Most respectfully,
Tim Sonefelt
mattmccoy
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Well put Mr. Sonefelt. I agree. Glenn is a true brother of magic and would never purposely rip off anyone for a quick buck. Glenn performed this effect for years using the speaker method before finally deciding to sell it.

-M.
JoyJoy
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I agree - the speaker was not on the market. Glenn couldn´t know, that years later it will be and James had already made a special one.
And if he did use it already for years before selling it... he could even be the first?
hugmagic
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Agreed.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
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JasonBaney
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Your arguments are again based on incorrect assumptions.

This is only about the particular effect Snowstorm in China and the method used to achieve said effect. Yes the tech may be used for other effects but the thought and creation of using it for snow is what Kevin came up with and protects.

Did Kevin sell the speaker on his website before the other guy, no. Had he made them and sold them privately, yes. Years before, in fact. Did Kevin contact Glenn when he started and ask him to stop, yes! Glenn refused. I made one in a book 3 months ago, you don't find it on the website so is it alright for someone to start selling those, NO!

As far as the umbrella/card sword comparison again there is none. First Kevin sold the effect but was not the inventor of the umbrella effect nor claimed to be. That was Sonny Fontana.

Second and MOST important to this discussion, the card sword is considered public domain. As is coin in bottle etc. This is where your argument is utterly destroyed because simply...

KEVINS METHOD IS NOT PUBLIC DOMAIN and therefore can't be used by anyone to recreate the snow effect by anyone, anywhere. Period. Anyone doing so is stealing.
timsonefelt
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Just to set the record straight, and I didn't want to post this but rather though Mr. Strange should do so, but I'm beating him to the punch/post.

Quite the opposite is true. Mr. Strange contacted Mr. James SEVERAL TIMES since my speaking with Mr. James in August in Vegas. Glenn wants to talk to Kevin to work through this and clear the air. Mr. James hasn't even given Glenn the common courtesy of returning a phone call.

Someone using a device to blow confetti in the air is no more theft than any of the other examples cited. Again, I'm not saying Mr. James knocked off anything, but if you go along with the thinking that Glenn 'stole' the idea, then the SAME STANDARD HAS TO BE APPLIED TO OTHER PRODUCTS. I don't think the card sword is public domain - It's not in any book I own (of about 30) with public domain magic. If I'm wrong, please let me know how you make that distinction. Technically I think a patent or copyright has to expire for something to become public domain (without one of the former, doesn't it 'start out' in public domain - technically)? I could be wrong - not a patent/copyright attorney. (Technically even IF it were patented there are enough differences for it to be legal, but that's beside the point).

Even if the parasol is Not Mr. James' idea, HE brought it to market. Again, I'm not saying the card sword parasol is a knock off, but you can't just apply that logic to what's YOURS (device in a specific prop) and not apply it to everything else.

If anyone can't see that this is the exact same thing, then this argument isn't worth the bandwidth is takes up on the internet. I guess I wouldn't be so adamant / upset about this if after Glenn had called Kevin and left messages for him to call so they could talk/resolve this, Kevin had done so.

Rather than having someone accuse Mr. Strange of stealing on his behalf, Mr. James should contact Glenn. Glenn is a very reasonable person to deal with and talk to. The simple fact of the mis-truths above about Kevin having asked Glenn to stop and Glenn refusing should cast doubt on the entire argument.

It's a shameful testament to the magic community that someone (me) have to take time our of my day to defend a friend against false accusations and now lies on such a public forum, when a simple returned phone call could have kept the whole discussion for being started. Discussion forums can be helpful, but they can, and often are, used to beat up, tear down, slander, falsely accuse, ridicule and even spread lies about individuals by other un or misinformed individuals.

Until Mr. James has the decency personally respond to Glenn's phone call requests to resolve this (and I'm positive there can be a positive resolution for both parties), this discussion should cease in my opinion. Glenn even has a toll free number.

Most respectfully,
Tim Sonefelt
GlennStrange
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Just to let you know, I have again contacted Kevin James by phone and left a message on his answering machine to call me and have a discussion about these issues. I think it best if he and I have a phone conversation. I look forward to his return call.

Glenn Strange
JasonBaney
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In the magic world, if the inventor of the effect/method is alive and claims ownership rights, then it should belong to him. No one before had used the method Kevin did, to do what he did. Period. So you should respect that as his intellectual property. That is very simple to understand and ethically the right thing to do.

Sure using that method to move confetti seems simple now, but before Kevin it was a paper fan. Would someone else have come up with later, sure probably, but they didn't. The same with all great inventions.
Did anyone else sell it before Kevin? No. Did anyone do it that way before him, No. Because Kevin exclusively (still) sells it to ethical people that realize who invented it and are willing to pay for the proper performance rights and props, that means he deserves to be stole from, NO!

Also in your logic, what is protected then? It seems you have an everything or nothing attitude. Any idea I come up with you can steal if the method seems easy to copy or you think you could have thought of that.

I know how a lot of magic works, that doesn't give me the right to copy it just because I know. Glenn is not only copying the effect but method. He has created nothing original, added nothing. Why should he be allowed to sell it? At best Glenn is a knockoff artist.

Who invented the card sword? Is he still around? Is someone claiming it as his? No, because that is public domain. It's been around along time. Kevins method hasn't. The same goes for the thumb tip, coin in bottle, etc. Because you personally don't know whether it is public domain or not, is not an excuse. Ignorance doesn't make you innocent.

Where did Glenn get his idea from?? Kevin That's fact.

Now for the phone call again...

Kevin called Glenn when he started putting them out years ago and asked Glenn to stop, Glenn said no. Kevin also sent emails, etc. I heard that directly from Kevin's mouth, besides that you have no right to question Kevin's decency in this matter or my integrity as well. I've worked for Kevin for 10 years. Kevin and I have personally talked about this and I stand behind all my statements as true.

Kevin is the one who has been wronged here. Why should Kevin now answer his calls and give him any sort of respect or courtesy after stealing tens of thousands of dollars from him. There is no resolution, is Glenn going to pay back all the money he's made off Kevins idea, very doubtful. What is more likely is he wants to work something out where Kevin gets a percentage or commission or pays a licensing fee. It doesn't matter, he would still be making money off Kevin, his name, his reputation, and trick. Kevin didn't want to sell it then, doesn't want to now, and won't be forced into it.

I don't know if Kevin has received any recent phone calls, it really doesn't matter though but I'll ask when he returns from performing for the Prince of Bahrain next week . Oh where he is performing his signature Kevin James Snowstorm, because he's the one known for inventing it, not Glenn.

If it was something you came up with and it was stole from you, I am sure your attitude would be different.
Magicians should realize there would be far more greater magic available to them if they would stop stealing others ideas and works. There is so many great inventors that won't release their ideas because they will just be ripped off. Tis' a pity....
timsonefelt
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Well, I have work to do so this will be my last post on this subject. There have been confetti cannons that used air to move confetti into the air before the mechanical device was first put into a stool - or did these folks rip Kevin off too, or maybe they're just exposing his method to the lay public. Someone better get on that. We don't want people to know there's a hidden air source moving the confetti in the snow storm.

They make all sorts of confetti cannons and confetti blowers. Some blow a single burst, some blow a continual burst. They have ones that work on electric fan driven motors.

http://www.aerotechnic.com/

http://www.aerotechnic.com/cannons/TheConfettiMachine.htm

These were around at least as long as Kevin marketed anything with a mechanical device to move confetti, but maybe they should be attacked too. My guess is that you won't because you won't get anywhere (like we're not getting anywhere here). It's much easier to lie and accuse an individual in a cottage industry like magic to make you feel strong and powerful.

I have worked with Glenn for 20 years and have spoken to BOTH on the matter. Kevin told me in Vegas (8/09) that he'd like to talk to Glenn about it - I heard that straight from Kevin's mouth. So that does give me reason to question . . .

Glenn didn't release this for money and doesn't want any of Kevin's money. Seems that's a paranoia.

Noted that it's Kevin out performing. Seems that people with a lot of free time take pleasure in keeping an argument alive where they can project the image of power and authority.

OK this is getting personal and I don't plan on stooping to accusations and lies, so I'm done with the conversation. I've tried to keep my conversation on the high road and shall stop before I steer off the road.


Regards,
Tim Sonefelt
JasonBaney
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Well that's great. I'm glad to hear you are finished because your arguments are still repetitively wrong. Confetti cannons are again a totally different effect, again not what we are talking about. Kevin didn't invent the technology, it's used for a lot of different stuff and he doesn't care. This is effect/method specific. You can't compare apples to oranges.

Kevin and I discussed this way prior to 8/09, so maybe he will talk with him now. I'll let him know as I said before.

If he didn't sell it for money then what did he do it for? The effect was already for sale thru Kevin and you could custom order it built into anything you want; even a speaker. So no apparent reason to. A mystery to which we will apparently never know the answer.

Am I trying to keep this argument alive, no, I thought it was done after Joyjoys last comment.

I have not attacked you although you have basically called me a liar. And since this discussion is really only you and I at this point.... you said I am apparently trying to appear strong and trying to project power and authority which is an insult. In case you didn't read my early posts I personally build and design all the animators for Kevin, so I have a personal stake in this. It is my business to be here because it is money lost to me as well.

I don't know you but you are obviously Glenn's friend which is fine. He may be a great guy, I don't know, I don't know him either. Everyone makes mistakes, but what he did is wrong in my opinion. 95% of magicians probably agree with me, that's why Kevin's known for it. You don't think Kevin has the right to this well that's your opinion and you have the right to have that opinion. It doesn't mean you are correct.

Your defending someone who sells an obvious knockoff. Even if Kevin didn't own the rights it is still a copy of his product. Why didn't he change it, add something to it? Make some kind of contribution to it and that way have a real claim or right to sell it. The reason...it's hard, takes time, money, and creativity. It's much easier to make a copy and make excuses to justify it. Magic is a small community and with so few new tricks out there, do we really need copies of existing magic?

As far as free time, I am busy designing the newest animator. But according to your logic
anyone has the right to just copy and sell what I am designing now with no repercussions. You honestly think that is right? So why should we bother investing all this time and money into it?

And no, I don't expect you to answer this but I won't sit idly by and let you attack, insult, or imply things about me, my character or integrity. I take great care and restraint in what I say here because I am a professional and this is about my personal business.
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