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Acecardician
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Subject: Katrina Victims

The Society of American Magicians Magic Endowment Fund has made
provisions
to assist magicians who are victims of the recent hurricanes in the
Gulf Coast
and in Florida. To date eight people have received funds to help them
get a
new start. Many victims have still not been able to get to their old
homes to
access damage. Some magicians have lost their livelihoods and props.
All
assistance needs are confidential and are evaluated by the special
trustees and
payments are immediate. To receive aid, victims do not need to be
members of
the S.A.M. - There is more to be done. donations to the Red Cross and
other
agencies do not necessarily reach our magicians directly,- Send
donations to
S.A.M. Magic Endowment
Fund- 234 Towyn Court- Ambler PA 19002- All donations are tax
deductible.
doublelift
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If you think P&T are a danger to magic don't go to any major theme park or Vegas Casino. The multitude of Magic shops will expose anthing a tourist can afford. Which is worse P&T doing clear cups and balls so fast magicians can't follow it or a $9.95 set with written instuctions or a DVD? When was the last time you were carded at a Magic shop? Now the argument is there has to be new blood brought into the art/hobby. Exposure for sale or to entertain if you don't like one why is the other ok?
gibson99
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Did any of you guys see the episode on smoking? I though they made some great points with evidence to back it up. Plus the fact that neither of them are smokers really helps to give them credibility.
teevtee
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I still don't get this "exposing secrets" argument.

First of all ANYBODY who has ANY interest in learning how ANY trick is done can find out that info in about 10 minutes on the web. They can buy tricks, buy books and DVDs or even visit sites dedicated to revealing methods of effects. This is NOT secret information, it is available to ANYONE just as it is available to us. So forget about the entire idea of "secrets" they just do not exist in the world of magic.

Secondly normal people are not idiots. They do not think you can magically make balls appear under cups or leviitate of the groud or put a coin thru a can... no, they assume that you are using tricks to fool them, and almost all of them are OK leaving it there. They think you posses SKILLS that they do not, not that you posses POWERS. They think you know slieghts and moves and have knowledge of equipment which they do not have or care to have... and they are correct. I can watch a great tennis player play a match and I can understand the concept of how they do it, but I cannot perform like them regardless of how much I understand how to play the game. Just because a layperson to magic understands that you are making moves does not mean that they can do it, even when armed with the knowledge of how it is done. This is why the clear cups and balls routine is so great. they TELL you how it is done and then proceed to fool you even with the clear cups. A few people may appreciate how hard those moves are and how smoothly a good magician can perform them... THIS IS A GOOD THING.

Stop trying to pretend you have special powers which NO ONE believes you have. Instead start acting like you have practiced a whole lot and have learned a craft... there is much more honro in that and audiences appreciate it much mroe as well.
Michael Bilkis
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I saw P&T years ago on broadway, Their refrigerator show. I found the "exposure" to be confounding because they folled you any how. It was a sucker type effect like the silk to egg but on a grand scale. From a psychological point of view, an average person will negate the explanation as being valid because they were just fooled. ERG, they even forget the explanation as it was not valid in the first place.

BTW, The card stabe routine htey did then was one of the most shoking anf funny bits of magic that I have ever seen. Teller puit the knife through Penn's hand to get to the card that he had "stolen" from the deck and hid.

Michael
nathanallen
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For those who HATE P&T... I think we have a lot to learn about ENTERTAINMENT from these guys. The public wants ENTERTAINMENT, and not necessarily PURE ART.

Sure, there are dozens of folks who are better at sleights than Blaine, do the same Steinmeyer stuff as Copperfield, but we are not on TV; THEY are. THEY are making bank. Why? Because THEY know how to ENTERTAIN. (Although, in my opinion, P&T are more entertaining than BOTH of the Davids combined)

This also explains the success of Blue Man Group. Sure, there are better drummers and musicians in the world, but BMG does an ENTERTAINING show.

We need to listen to the public and not become "imbred" (for lack of a better term), convincing ourselves that the latest trick deck or technical perfection is the only key to entertaining the masses. If you ask any lay public to describe the most recent magic show they've seen, chances are it will be very lackluster.

Penn & Teller can ENTERTAIN. That's what they are; entertainers. They deserve every dollar they've made. They're original, well-read, and gut-busting funny.

...IMHO.

Thank you for your kind attention.
Nathan Allen, The Maniac of Magic
www.maniacofmagic.com

To buy a prop is nothing.
To write a good routine is something.
To really entertain an audience is everything.
Dannydoyle
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Aside from the fact that the word is probably "inbread" you are trying to use.

I agree with ya.

NO matter what they are where they are, and it was not luck that did it for any of the guys you mentioned. I don't like Blaine, but which of us had all the ABC specials? I try to forget, but it was NOT me!

You do make a valid point.

And it kind of stems from your point. A magic show targeted at an audince of "laity" will be far more entertaining to me than one targeted at magicians. Most "people" not magicians, don't like magic convention shows at all.

And there are far more real people out there, than us.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
nathanallen
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"imbred" (stereotyped tobacco-chewing southern drawl)
Just wanted to clarify that.
:gunfighter:

Glad one person agrees with me. Thank you.
Nathan Allen, The Maniac of Magic
www.maniacofmagic.com

To buy a prop is nothing.
To write a good routine is something.
To really entertain an audience is everything.
tlfdoc
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Agree that P&T are among the most talented and entertaining magicians out there. Their humor definitely isn't for everyone, but they unquestionably have the skills and "chops" and understand and appreciate much about the history of magic and magicians. In contrast to so many dull and boring magicians, their show is unique and worth seeing without a doubt!
JHodgeCMI
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Has anyone tried their 800 number Card revelation from Cruel Tricks? Is it still working?

Jay
Mysterioii
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Actually it's "inbred".

"Inbread" = "a sandwich"
Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2006-02-13 06:52, gibson99 wrote:
Did any of you guys see the episode on smoking? I though they made some great points with evidence to back it up. Plus the fact that neither of them are smokers really helps to give them credibility.


That and th fact that they completely ignored literally ALL of the scientific evidence that contradicts THEIR stance on the issue of smoking - just like they did with the episode on hypnosis where they quoted the woman out of context, misquoted and ignored literally ALL of the brainwave research that proves them wrong in their assertions as well.

Yes, they are the masters of the use of something called "selective instance" when it comes to anything that disagrees with their own opinions, that is pretty easily demonstrated.

Their show is aptly named. It sums up their misues of the scientific method, perfectly. They claim to be skeptics, but a skeptic is one who says "I am open to be shown," not "I have already made up my mind to disagree with you and I'm going to prove you wrong." That's a disbeliever.

Of course, there is also a much stronger word for people like that, too. It begins with the letter 'B.'

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Dannydoyle
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I never really look to them for scientific knowlege, any more than I would look to them for theological knowlege.

in their own context they are indeed entertaining. I just wish people knew they were not the final word on everything they say they are.

Problem is because they ARE so engaging, people take it as fact.

I know what ya mean Lee, they do misuse but I believe they do it for entertainment.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
jgravelle
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Quote:
Yes, they are the masters of the use of something called "selective instance" when it comes to anything that disagrees with their own opinions...


I know what you mean. I'd respect them a lot more if they could be more fair and balanced, you know... like Dan Rather.

Don't worry. It'll all balance out once PBS launches the 'Amazing Jonathan and Lehrer Newshour'... Smile


Regards,

-jjg
mmize
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I've been reading through this thread and it's actually kind of sad how many people who claim to love the art of magic have such a shallow understanding of it. People who immediately become enraged at any form of "exposure" are, in my mind, only demonstrating that they don't really appreciate what this grand profession is, or can be.

Magic is so much more than the secret moves we make with our hands when no one is looking. And to reduce it to that is to do this fine art a great disservice. It's about what we say and how we say it. It's about the larger truths we can expose with a few samll white lies. At it's core it's about, or at least it should be, trying to make a connection with people and share a unique experience.

Teevtee made an excellent post and said much of what I wanted to say for me. Most laypeople's view of magic is very limited. They don't believe in "real" magic, they believe we are doing something they are not able to see. When we become furious over a few moves being exposed, we are, in effect, supporting that very shallow view of this great craft.

The audience is not stupid. And all of you who have said anything close to this, really have no business in magic. P&T know the audience is not stupid. They know that the audience doesn't really believe they have magical powers. By exposing a few tricks they allow the audience to see the nuts and bolts of magic, and in turn, allow the audience a better appreciation of how magic "really" works. They can appreciate how clever the deception was, and that there was more going on than just a few quick moves. They also leave not feeling like chumps who were scammed, but rather lucky enough to experience something truly unique.

It's no secret I'm a huge Sankey fan. (I apologize, I know this is getting horribly off track, but I've struck a nerve here) Many of the negative and bitter posters in this thread would do well to take the time to read Sankey's book "Beyond Secrets" with an open mind and heart. It sounds cheezy and cliche, but magic really could be so much more.

Just my thoughts, thanks for listening.
nathanallen
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Quote:
On 2006-02-28 09:52, mmize wrote:
...really appreciate what this grand profession is, or can be...


NMIZE-
That was a heck of an article. Very well said. I couldn't agree more. Are you a writer, by the way?
Nathan Allen, The Maniac of Magic
www.maniacofmagic.com

To buy a prop is nothing.
To write a good routine is something.
To really entertain an audience is everything.
frenchmagi
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Totally disagree. I see it more and more nowadays when I go out to see magicians. Expose a series of moves and then come back with a another to blow them away. Although it's an efficient way of deceiving the audience in my opinion it's a blantant breach of the code that magicians need to stick to in order to preserve the artform. The way I see it magicians who use these tactics do not have the proficiency to impresss their audiences with their actual skills, that they need to expose effects in order to keep the audience interested. It's disgusting and when I see it in person it makes my skin crawl.
gollymrscience
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I have seen more damaging exposure from guys doing magic badly than from P and T.
The points made about how the audiance sees us are right on. We are not living in the Dark Ages. People do not believe you are some superhuman no matter how much your own ego might need that crutch. 99 time out of 100 your audiance knows they are getting got and its up to you to sell the effect as art. A puzzle wherein the audiance suspends belief for a moment and goes along with you no matter how impossible the premise because they want to be entertained. We do it when we choose to suspend our disbelief and allow ourselves to be drawn into Harry Potter or Spiderman movies(I know they have nothing to do with each other - that's why I've used them). We know that there is no Hogwarts and there are no guys in tights swinging from buildings (I used to but my wife made me quit).
As far as exposure and audiance perception I well remember a Magic Dealer/Magician in Edmonton, Alberta Canada - Freddy Willard, pulling off the perfect proof that what we fear as insiders isn't even on the radar for most laymen.
Freddy had a couple in there looking at some stuff. They were very new and the boyfriend wanted to get into magic. They had been to lots of shows and even bought some books and now it was timr to get serious.
Freddy reached into his jacket pocket for the handkerchief and TT but as he pulled them out the TT slipped off and fell to the floor. A couple of the regulars were there and were all set to fall into an awkward silence but Freddy was an experianced showman. A bold as brass he asked the girl to pick it up off the floor and pass it back to him. She handed it to him with the load exposed and all she said was ewwww gross. Freddy took it and tucked it into his jacket (so they thought) appologized for falling apart so easily and then proceeded to do Silk from Hanky using the very TT and load they had just seen!
They were amazed - we were amazed - and they were CLUELESS!!!
Exposure?? No way.
Freddy sold the young man Silk From Hanky and because it was just "the Boys" in the shop let the young man open the package. When he saw the TT he was floored and we were all killing ourselves laughing.
But here is the kicker - he was still amazed.
He summed it up by saying "I saw it happen - I think I know what happened-but...what just happened??
Now that's magic.
wayno
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Quote:
Freddy reached into his jacket pocket for the handkerchief and TT but as he pulled them out the TT slipped off and fell to the floor. A couple of the regulars were there and were all set to fall into an awkward silence but Freddy was an experianced showman. A bold as brass he asked the girl to pick it up off the floor and pass it back to him. She handed it to him with the load exposed and all she said was ewwww gross. Freddy took it and tucked it into his jacket (so they thought) appologized for falling apart so easily and then proceeded to do Silk from Hanky using the very TT and load they had just seen!
They were amazed - we were amazed - and they were CLUELESS!!!


Heh. That story is priceless. Smile

Sincerely,
Wayne Stevenson
The SpookClub
Wayne Stevenson
The SpookClub
http://www.spookclub.com
Kent Wong
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That story was priceless in more ways than one. Willard was a cornerstone of the Edmonton magic community for many years. But he seldom demonstrated effects to customers. Instead, he described each and every effect in such vivid detail that you didn't need to see it performed. His purported "logic" was that people pay for the secret, not the show.

Eccentric? That doesn't even begin to describe Willard! He was an extremely accomplished magician in his own right and, even today, quietly continues to manufacture products right here in Edmonton. But have you ever heard of a magic dealer REFUSING to sell you a product?

That's exactly what Willard would do. If you walked into his store looking for an advanced effect that HE KNEW you weren't ready to tackle, he would outright refuse to sell it to you. Although many customers were likely put off by this at times, there was method in the madness.

If a customer tried to take on an effect that was clearly beyond his abilities, he would become frustrated and maybe even blame the shop for selling the thing to him. Even worse, the customer might put on such a poor performance of the effect that he completely blows it and exposes the method.

So, Willard justified his approach as making sure the customers were satisfied with their purchase and protecting the integrity of the craft. Willard would actually "test" his customers from time to time in order to determine the level of their ability and their dedication and approach to the craft.

I still remember when I was about 10 years old, I went into his store and aked for a color changing silk effect. Williard didn't really know me very well since I lived 300 miles out of town and only made it into his store periodically. He told me there were two different versions of the effect I was looking for: a self working gimmicked effect and an effect that required some sleight of hand. He asked me which one I wanted. I told him the sleight of hand version.

He liked that and asked me to perform the effect for him the next time I came back to the store. I did just that and it seemed to open up a whole new side of Willard. Only in hindsight did I realize Willard was testing me, and that I had passed.

But can you imagine any dealer taking such a protective approach to the craft in today's day and age? Ahh, ... the good ole days!

Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________
<BR>
<BR>www.kentwongmagic.com
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