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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts 
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All the tax in all of the USA collected last year went to the banks and the military complex. Both of which are owned by a few well known crooks.
In the meantime there is 1.4 Million children homeless in the USA. The average age of the homeless in general is 9 years old.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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So basically if we kill off everyone between eight and ten we reduce the homeless significantly?
I happen to be in a union, they are completely gutless and I would rather represent myself because they agreed to lower than standard pay, worse benefits, and basically serve no purpose other than taking my money every month. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-01-05 00:56, EsnRedshirt wrote: This is a broad sweeping statement that can not be supported. Not even close. GM is dead right now because of union legacy costs plain and simple. I am not saying they are the problem or the solution, but to call them either is short sighted. What else was happening while this was all going on. You like to make sweeping statements and pin down one thing as the cause. Not possible with economics.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-01-05 10:43, Dannydoyle wrote: When we get into these type of discussions we tend to make broad and sweeping statements which in part make sense but are obviously not the complete solution nor do they identify the complete problem. If it were only that simple. So I am in agreement with Danny on this one. Also in my previous rant I said that unions were in "part" the problem, not the whole problem...OK I did say big part. Speaking of unions I will admit that they were an absoulte God Sent in their infancy. However it is a different climate now and they are definitely a deterrent to business growth.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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[quote]On 2010-01-05 10:43, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
GM is dead right now because of union legacy costs plain and simple. ? Um, I'm not the only one making broad and sweeping statements. By the way, non-union workers down the road at the Toyota plant made about $22.50 per hour versus the union rate of $24.00 an hour. You're suggesting GM was bankrupted over $1.50 an hour per employee? Because, if I recall correctly, UAW (Union of Auto Workers), not GM, provides health insurance for the employees once they retire, meaning the only legacy costs are pensions, and the pension fund should be managed by GM management. Of course, if management was doing a poor job handling those funds, I guess they could claim that it's causing them financial trouble. Some numbers- in the 1940's, nearly 34% of private workers were represented by a trade union. Today, that number is about 8%. The history of the labor movement isn't widely taught in the US, but remember, unions fought against worker abuses by the robber barons, and were one of the few ways that workers could be represented and compete on a political level with big businesses. My personal opinion- higher domestic wages are good for the US economy, if the government uses economic protection in the form of tariffs. It promotes small business and domestic enterprise. Free trade without tariffs favors bigger, multinational businesses and outsourcing jobs and suppliers- the ones with the connections and the size to negotiate international deals can undercut the smaller domestic businessman on every front. Now, if a politician is pro-corporate and favors this, that's fine, but they should admit it, and not suggest they're pro-small business when they support the very regulations that make it tougher for small business owners.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-01-05 10:43, Dannydoyle wrote: Health care costs in the U.S. had a LOT to do with that. Plain and simple. GM plants in Canada were producing cars for hundreds of dollars less than you were doing in the U.S., in large part because of the universal healthcare system up here. Quote: Is it a wonder, then, that thanks to single-payer, the Big Three auto manufacturers produce a car in Canada for many hundreds of dollars less than they produce the identical car at home? DaimlerChrysler has supported single-payer. "A lot of people think a single-payer system is better," vice president Thomas Hadrych told The Washington Post in 2004. His counterparts at GM and Ford may agree but are mighty quiet about it. In the United States, that is. In Canada, however, GM and Ford executives love it, openly. In 2002, Michael Grimaldi, GM Canada's president and general manager, hailed it as "a strategic advantage for Canada." Grimaldi spoke to reporters after he, top Canadian executives of Ford and DaimlerChysler, and the president of the Canadian Auto Workers union signed a "Joint Letter on Publicly Funded Health Care." While providing "essential and affordable healthcare services for all," the letter said, single-payer "significantly reduces total labour costs...compared to the cost of equivalent private insurance services purchased by US-based automakers" and "has been an important ingredient" in the success of Canada's "most important export industry."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts
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Esnredshirt,
Remember that trade unions are different than a union at an auto plant. Trade unions are for people in the trades and who have a skill, carpenders, plumbers, electricans, masons, etc. Do not compare them with auto workers. If you are in the trades and have a skill you do not need a union in order to find work. However if you are a contractor and want to bid on certaini jobs you must hire union workeres at union wages...here we go again with inflated wages which relates back to an inflated price for a finished product. Trade union work is not necessiarly better work it justs costs more. IF in the trades you can charge what you want to make a living and do not need a union to help you or hinder you. Believe me there is enough work to go around for skilled trade workers. Supply and demand which is not the case when unions are in the picture...again get back to teachers..the supply far ourtweighs the demand yet their salaries go up and up along with the benefits WHY..answer unions. You pick on Toyota and mention the salaries being in the 22 to 24 range and lets be honest for unskilled labor 20 dollar an hour range is very good it equates to around $50,000 a year plus benefits. Don't compare them to what the workers at other GM plants were making. Many were in the 40 an hour range with benefits because of senority. I am sorry but working on a production line (unskilled labor) does not warrant a salary plus benefits in the $80,000 range. Obviously my opinion your milage may vary. Was there poor management by GM? If you answer no to this question you are naive and I do realize you did not say that but that is also why they should have been left to their own destiny. I am missing youir point on UAW supplying insurance after retirement. Is that the UNION? If so how do you think the employee pays his union dues? Have you ever been in on a contract negoation with management and a union? This all comes up an is put on the table in the discussion of wages at the meetinigs bythe negoiating team. It is brought up that we have to pay our own retiriement health insurance so we need more money. Also remember this, no where does it say that the employeer has to give retirement insurance to the employee. It is the employees responsibility to have such insurance for him or herself upon retirement which can be purchased while they are employed and if they are competent they should receive a good salary that would cover such costs. However being competent does not enter into the picture if you are in a union, all you have to do is be medicore and with senority reap the benefits that management must pay you for just getting by. This is not the American way nor is it what this country was built on. Unfortunately it is coming to that as we are leaning more and more to socialism
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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I think UMNI, the Toyota plant that I heard had shut down in Fremont, started at the low $20's and worked up, I don't know for sure. Want to see some huge wages? Check out those paid to longshoreman. To make it better it is a closed group meaning good luck getting a job w/out being related to someone. The best part for them is they will always get what they want because the control the ports.
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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Aces- the good workers may not have college degrees, but they're hardly "unskilled". We're talking about keeping a production line running non-stop, 24 hours a day. Every time that line stops, it creates backups that cost the company tons of money. A line boss- the ones who make $80k a year, will keep that line running. They know the workflow forwards and backwards, and can fill in for any position on that line.
And, no, I didn't agree much with the auto bailouts either. Oh- Quote: "Should" is the key word here. As in, "well, it should be, but it ain't."
It is the employees responsibility to have such insurance for him or herself upon retirement which can be purchased while they are employed and if they are competent they should receive a good salary that would cover such costs. So, what -was- this country built on? The broken backs of blacks, and Chinese, Irish, and Polish immigrants? That's what the railroads were built on. Or maybe it was built on the strong backs of union steel and construction workers, who's efforts are still standing in the form of skyscrapers in cities all across America. America's gone back and forth between corporatism and socialism quite often in its history. During the times when socialism is high, the American workers and middle class tend to thrive, but everyone enjoys the benefits of a robust economy. During the times when corporatism is high, the upper class do exceedingly well for themselves, almost always at the expense of the middle class. They're both America. Which direction are we heading towards now? What direction have we been going in for the last 20 years? Like I said, unfettered trade favors multinational corporations- they're the ones outsourcing all our jobs to other countries. I feel if you want a strong America, you need an economy based on domestic jobs, by domestic corporations, which pump money back into the domestic economy instead of pushing it out to other countries.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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The average wage per hour in the USA is about $20 according the Gov which is scandalously low. Take into account that they then rob back half of it in tax. It anything but good. The low wages have forced the people to live on credit and so in realty they work for loans and pay interest on it. So what has been happening is the employers have making massive profits due low wages which are banked and lent back to the workers via easy CC loans etc. The wages have not kept pace with the rise in production, as used to be the case in the USA. Thus the people are now $40 Trillion in debt now. The unions ought to have been demanding a proper wage for the people so the people didn't have to resort to living on credit. What you have now in the USA is 1% with all the money and IOUs and 99% in debt. When I a kid the USA had best paid people and probably because they had good unions. Now the credit has run out and no can pay their bills and interest and so on. it’s the exact same over here in England. My solution is to form a gang and go bank robbing!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-01-05 12:18, balducci wrote: Lets not make this a long boring health care debate ok? Your system is just as flawed as anyones here. Fact is that taxes are WAY higher in Canada. Can we not make this a health care debate please? How much were those workers making vs what the American counter parts were making vs how much tax each paid vs what sort of home they could buy vs what the dollars are worth compared to each other? I mean lord there are so many varialbes and you can pick one and say that it is better, and we can pick on the other side and say that is better. It is really a swirling black hole of nothingness.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts
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Esnredshirt,
I guess we are splittinig hairs here. Not sure what you call skilled and unskilled labor. You can go to a bottling plant and put caps on bottles all day and call yourself skilled because your buddy does not know how to do it, but that is not skill that is just learning how to do simplistic routine. Wire a house, build a garage put in a sink and tub and water heater...truthfully now which in your opinion is skilled the guy putting on bottle caps doinig the same operation thousands of tims over and over or the plumer electrican? You also mention that the good workers may not have college degrees, but those good workers are not necessairly the ones making 40 an hour it is the one with senority that makes that money because of the union. In a union your salary is usualy not based on production but rather time employed and total hours worked. This is just wrong.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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Aces,
They don't pay anyone to put caps on bottles all day- robots do it cheaper and easier. Instead, the worker monitors the robot and does multiple jobs too detailed for a robot to do- complex stitching on custom made shoes, or riveting, sanding, and resin-coating the leather handle of a hammer. Go ahead and watch "How It's Made" on the Science Channel sometime- it's a fascinating show, and proves there's still a place for skilled labor even in a factory. The plumber and electrician are skilled, too. However, an A/C repairman can earn about $100 an hour, while a factory technician probably earns a bit over minimum wage. Remember, though, that A/C repairman isn't necessarily working for a client eight hours a day; and he's got to put some of that money back into his business- phone bills, equipment maintenance, fuel for transportation. If he's lucky, he'll pull in maybe the equivalent of $20-$40 an hour. I won't say it's right to earn more than your job's worth just because of seniority, but I do think Tommy's right that the average salary in this country is scandalously low. It used to be that we were sold on the American Dream- owning a house in the suburbs, having two kids and two cars in a single-income family. Well, we're still sold that American dream, but now it's just a fantasy. Nobody can do that these days on $20 an hour, even after taxes. That's $40k a year, and not a living wage for a family of four. Meanwhile, the CEO makes more than 25x that salary (assuming he's just making a paltry million dollars a year before taxes). Every hour, he makes 5x what the repairman charges per hour, and, unlike the repairman, gets it every hour consistantly, and doesn't have to pump some of it back into the business. Is the CEO more skilled than the repairman? Or are they equally skilled in different areas? When you look at it in terms of trying to provide for a family instead of the simple economics of job worth, do the relative numbers change? Is it the fact that union workers, with seniority, can make a living wage, or that non-union workers have to hold down three jobs to feed their families? Yeah, something looks wrong here to me, too, but it's probably not what looks wrong to you.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-01-05 15:00, EsnRedshirt wrote: Maybe out in highfalutin CA, but I know people who do this very kind of thing. Shoot, I saw one company on How It's Made (since you mention it) hand-filling jars with apple butter (or jam or some such) AND putting on the labels and lids by hand. I think unions are like many other things that started for the right reasons. People get greedy and power-hungry. Too much of a good thing.... BTW, when my mother was selling Real Estate (don't get me started on how little most of them make for the amount of work and money put in), she sold a house to a guy who had worked less than two years in a nearby car assembly line. He made close to $80 an hour, he and his family had full benefits, and all he had to do was guide one piece over to another. I let you guess how he was so well off. Quote:
Meanwhile, the CEO makes more than 25x that salary (assuming he's just making a paltry million dollars a year before taxes). Every hour, he makes 5x what the repairman charges per hour, and, unlike the repairman, gets it every hour consistently, and doesn't have to pump some of it back into the business. "From each according to his ability," eh? I don't mind a CEO making loads if the company's making the money to pay him/her and the shareholders approve it. It's the fact that many who watched their company tank get such a nice farewell.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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The fact of the matter is- somebody needs to do that job where they put the labels on by hand, or move one piece over another. It's still a full-time job, so if you're expecting the person doing it to do it well, you better pay them enough that they can survive, or not be suprised when they try to hold down three jobs to make ends meet.
Well, yeah, you can argue that jobs like that are meant for students or kids living at home, but there's just not enough kids in the workforce to fill all those jobs. If we're going to outsource all our manufacturing, agricultural, and technical jobs, we'll be left with an economy made up of bankers and burger-flippers (and garbage men to take out the left over burgers, and teachers to show kids how to flip burgers.) It might be fine for the bankers, but it's not a good way to run an economy for anyone else. I do notice how everyone's got a problem with unions now- some people saying they're taking away too much money from the corporations profits... and others saying they're negotiating away everything and aren't taking enough. Guess it all comes down to your point of view. Oh, by the way, shareholders get votes based on the amount of stock they own. So if the CEO's also a shareholder, and owns 200k shares of stock, he gets 200k votes to pay his million dollar salary versus your 200 votes to pay him less. And unless you can take time off your job to attend the shareholder meeting, then you'll probably just be letting your proxy vote for you- better hope your proxy wants to stand up for your opinion to pay the CEO less, as well.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts
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Not all of Ca is so highfalutin, and neither is esn..
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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Michael J. Douglas Inner circle WV, USA 1645 Posts
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I should've put a winker after "highfalutin CA," but it was mid-sentence.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It� |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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By the way, without that factory worker pulling an $80 an hour salary, your mother wouldn't have made any commission off his home purchase
There's a reason why a strong middle class is vital to a strong economy. Sure, you can argue trickle-down economics and the rich should get tax breaks to spend more money, but the fact is that while a CEO may buy a pair of $500 shoes once a year, more people will make more money from all his employees buying $50 shoes once a year, provided they're paid enough to afford them. It's more "trickle sideways" than "trickle down" but it's much more effective.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts
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I can only respond to your comment about putting caps on bottles by saying "I KNOW THAT" it was just a comment on a repitious job. I thought you would pick up on that.
I also was waiting for the CEO comments. Of course it is sinful what they make but lets not compare ourselves with them. They are a select group that you and I will never crack into ..friends of friends in Ivy League Schools etc. Lets not go there. I love heariing the term middle class: Define middle class in terms of salary. Then look and see how many of you are really middle class. Come on now you ask is the CEO more skilled than the repair man? Get serious you have to know you are comparing apples to oranges. First lets say we need 10,000 repair man. You have to know that for every 10,000 repair men there is probably 1 CEO or even less in this country that earn the type of salary you are talking about. Again I agree that their salary and expense account is siniful and Ido not feel justified so id your answer tomake the repair mans salary also unjustified. Believe me those 10,000 repair man got and unjustified salary you would not make enough money to have your TV, car, house, heat system, drain unblocked etc. The only ones who could hire them would be the CEOs..kind of ironic. Do you perform magic paart time or full time or just a hobby? Reason for asking is what abaout a magician going to an affair and charging $300 for 1 1/2 hours or less. The same affair has a DJ that works for 5 hours or more brings more equipment than "most magicians" and is lucky to get 300. Is that fair in your way of thinking? Well let me tell you ..it is fair. Because magicians are a lot harder to find than DJs, therefore supply and demand come in to play. Lets not even get into the talent needed for both jobs...while a DJ has to be talented it is nothing like the magician. You can be a natural DJ but you cannot be a natural magician. You must rehearse and rehearse and then you must rehearse some more. If a DJ stumbles somehow by playing the wrong song or is off on his que for a song to start it is not big deal most people are not even paying attentionto him..but if the magician...well no need to say anything. I think we all know what happens when an effect goes wrong. I could go on and on with comparsions about skill and fairness of wages but when someone has a mind set on something it is near impossible to change their mind. So you will not change mine and I will not change yours. So be it...big deal. Just a final note when comparinig a CEO salary and repair mans salaary it is like comparing the noon day sun to a lightening bugs rear end. In other words your comparison is totally invalid.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts
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Aces, I hate to nitpick on grammar and spelling, but I can't argue with you, because I can't understand half of your last post.
So, back to the point- how do we stop the US economy from bleeding jobs- and more importantly, reverse the current loss? I still say tariffs should at least be part of the solution.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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