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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1177 Posts |
I have added three microscope images, 180x magnification, of cross sections of Bicycle card, Lybrary stock and Piatnik cards to my blog. See here http://www.lybrary.com/make-your-playing......ardboard
Regardless of how many layers you think they are, you can see that they are pretty much identical. That means the cardboard I provide allows you to print your own cards identical to Bicycle cards or other high quality cards. You can clearly see the two paper layers which are glued together by the center black glue.
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Chris, thanks for the information. Some of us know you are absolutely right. Some others just can't stand to be wrong. I guess they think they are too much of an expert to be wrong. Anyone can see for themselves if they just take the time to look. The way I see it, some owe you an apology for being so hostile.
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jondunlap New user 10 Posts |
Michael
And to further that, all they need to do is watch the video on USPCC. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand, they show exactly this fact. I think there is just some resentment going on here. Sad. 1) video documentary of the USPCC plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlVSyhg8g3s I think a few people own Chris an appology, but I know that will never come, only ethical an honest people would do so. |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-27 19:46, jondunlap wrote: Yes, all they have to do is watch the video. Take a look at 4 minutes 30 seconds into it and you will see the adhesive used. I don't see how anyone can't see this. |
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jondunlap New user 10 Posts |
Not only the black adhesive, but they state "two" layers to make "Bicycle" cards. But maybe Chris built a factory to make a fake Documentary. You know I would not put anything past him. LMAO After all he never showed us how big he was. Ughh What an idiot. No, facts are facts, and these are crystal clear. They rest is very apparent as well. Actually after some of the far less than mature and professional comments and accusations I have read here, you could not give me those flaming bird cards for free. I would be embarassed to own them. How sad some people show themselves to be. I'll stick with the ethical ones with intellegence.
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1177 Posts |
Michael, Jon, thanks a lot. It is surprising to me how some try to argue against verifyable facts in a public forum.
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
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jondunlap New user 10 Posts |
Chris
Very easy to stand up for someone of quality, obvious intellegence, and a great sense of ethics. Sad to see others show their true colors. The magic world is far too small, and in the end it will impact their business and reputation. For the others here with their negativity, they just need to clean up their own side of the street first. Learn facts before you show your ignorance. You have been a gentleman. Jon |
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Craig Dickson Veteran user Pleasant Valley, NY 353 Posts |
Wow, what a great thread. I've been to USPCC as well. The process is exactly as on the video, just watched it. Cool. I can also attest for the Character of Mr Wasshuber having been Dealer Chaiman of the SAM Convention for years. He was always welcomed. He provides a resource to the magic community that is truly a labor of love. Not merely a self serving interest. His integrity and honesty are tops in my book. The accusations here about honesty are quite frankly not only suprising, but to put it bluntly, quite stupid. Hi Chris, long time. Love all the info on your site. I'll have to play with the card stock, have quite a few needs for just a few gaffs to customize to specific clients. Great idea.
Craig R Dickson
Website: www.wizardcraft.com Blog: http://wizardcraftmagic.blogspot.com Magicalendar: http://allmagicguide.com/c.html |
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abrell Loyal user Remscheid, Germany 284 Posts |
I think it is time to cool down the discussion otherwise we will see Cris and Christian duelling in Ricky Jay style (Cards as deadly weapons).
Due to home computers, cheaper printers and software available for laymen the complete business and process of graphic design and printing has changed the last decades. The business of Chris and Christian would have been impossible 30 years ago. Both are competitors in the same market. If you need printed cards or custome made printed cards ready for use, Cristian offers some. I have a lot of theme and like them. The quality is perfect for me as for many other magicians around the world too. If you want to print cards for yourself, there are a lot of options. Chris offers some of them. The use of graphic design software must be learned, but such software is available at reasonable costs today. A standard printer can produce results magicians a decade before would have dreamed of. I know how much time I spend learning this and can say it was worth investing that time and money. But not everybody must do everything and for a lot of graphic design I ask professionals and I know why. If you want to print gaff cards yourself and are not experienced with Adobe Photoshop, then maybe it is a good idea to ask a pro and bring the necessary vector files with you - Chris offers them. What do I use? Of course I have a lot of ready printed cards; I do not use Bicycles, but Piatnik. And for these I have printed several gaff cards myself. And I permanently use cards from Card Shark. And I also asked some professional graphic designers to design some giant cards for me and had them printed at a professional print shop. And I print some special cards for special tricks myself because I do not want the standard Bicycle design. Here you see some tarot cards I printed for myself. They are 8 inches to 4 1/4 inches and are printed on heavy structure linen cardboard. The cards are aged, warped and stained and some are magnetic because I did not like to use magicians wax... Such props were not possible 20 years ago. Click here to view attached image. |
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CardMaker Inner circle Ludwigsburg/GERMANY 1063 Posts |
I only can speak for myself; I don't care if the cards are made from 2 layers or from 3 layers!
I am only interested in having 3 layers AFTER splitting the cards. So, if the middle layer is just glue + any "rest of paper", so it'll be! I am not on MAKING CARDS, I "destroy + rebuild" them ;-) Hats off to the ones who have that very special knowledge about making cards. PS: if cards were produced of one layer only, that'll be ok too - as long as they can be splitted and remounted.
CardMaker/Bernd Maucksch
Finest gaffed cards for magicians |
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Card-Shark Inner circle Germany 1758 Posts |
The microscopic view convinced me. So I apologize for the false info and I will check my sources again as soon as I am back home and find the time. And if I can prove your statements, I will be happy to update my info on my website. I think that a lot of publications will need an update then.
The fact, that some cards split into three layers and some into two layers, must have to do with the fact of different qualities of glue and paperstock. German cards with the specification (Chris will understand that:) "Klangharter Karton" split into two equal layers, so they split on the glue layer and the two paper layers stay intact. With Bicycle style and similar brands it seems that the structure of the paper (der Strich) and/or the stronger glue is responsible for the separation into a thinner part and a thicker part. So to update the layer theory this should then be correct: all playing cards are built up of two layers of paper, glued together with darkened glue. When you split them these two possibilities can happen: - some stock really splits apart exactly in the glued center and you get two equal layers, so every layer should contain 50 % of the thickness of the card - others split in a way that the paper layer on one side is split about in the half of its thickness, so you get one layer being 25 % thick and another layer being 75 % thick. This layer again can be split (if you are good) and you will get: 1 thin layer (25% of the card thickness) 1 thick middle layer, containing the glue and half the paper of each side, summing up to 50% 1 thin layer (25% of the card thickness) All this makes sense and would explain all the confusions. I will definitely go back to my sources and check again. If I do a mistake, I am open to say that. Sorry.
Expert in playing card production for magicians.
The Person Who Says It cannot Be Done Should Not Interrupt The Person Doing It! Chinese Proverb |
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gphrenol Regular user 112 Posts |
I have done card splitting and believed strongly that they were three layers, and I presume had two layers of glue. It was very interesting to see how they are actually only two layers of paper. The center layer of glue is very special in the way it controls the feel, opacity and bonds deeply with the other layers in a very predictable way. I learned a lot, Thanks guys for getting down to the brass tacks.
I believe it was said that the card had to be cut to see the glue area. Why is it that the centeral black glue does not show up at the edge of the card??? |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
This talk about layers of the card is kind of dull, if you would ask me. What I would like to know is HOW CAN YOU SPLIT CARDS THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT THEM. I'm not yelling. I would just like to know if I want a back can I split a back. If I want a face can I split a face.
So far I have yet to see a DVD/Book to tell me how to do this. Any help from you guys?
Magic is a vanishing art.
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slim23 Veteran user 309 Posts |
Marty Martini makes an excellent DVD explaining how to split a card and if you want a double layer (1 +glue, it seems) that is the face or rhe back. You can usually save and use both sides of the card. The important part is to glue back together a single layer with a double layer. I have to admit (having spit a lot of card) that there is a certain luck to have the double layer on the side you want. Therefore, you will probably have to split more than two cards.
Slim, p.s. He also did a book about splitting cards. Check his website. I ordered from him and was really satisfied. He also sometimes add a trick as a extra. http://www.martinismagic.com/Products.html |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1177 Posts |
Gphrenol, you can see the black glue layer at the center from the edge of an otherwise unaltered card with a simple magnifying glass.
Since the topic is card splitting I will share a method of card splitting I developed many years back. I have written about it before but since it is not that well known I will repeat it here, free of charge for all who are interested. The method I use when I need to split many cards is to polish off the top layer or the bottom layer. I use what is typically called a 'table top belt sander'. I have built myself a little holder from wood with a small recess in the shape of a card. The recess is only a bit less than half the thickness of one card. A card goes into this recess and with the holder I gently press the card onto the table top belt sander. Of course, one has to use a fairly fine grit sanding belt. I typically remove half the card until the black glue is exposed. But one can also only remove the top layer that is typically removed during normal card splitting. The biggest advantage here is speed. Once you have found a good combination of the right sanding paper, holder and pressure it goes very fast. The biggest disadvantage is that you destroy one half of the card whereas with splitting you have two sides you can use depending on your splitting skills.
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
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CardMaker Inner circle Ludwigsburg/GERMANY 1063 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-03-06 06:31, Chris wrote: I seriously doubt that! And I guess you have to wear a mask and do it in a good ventilated room. And you have to clean up that room afterwords.
CardMaker/Bernd Maucksch
Finest gaffed cards for magicians |
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1177 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-03-06 06:45, CardMaker wrote: Have you tried it? I have! Of course, you need a workshop. I am not offering this here to claim that it is universally better than the traditional way of splitting cards. I am simply sharing a method that I developed and that has served me well over the years.
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
Chris, I have been following this thread for a while now, and I have to say that you have my respect. I don't know if that'll mean anything, but in my books you are the true Card Shark of knowledge. I liked how you stood your ground while a few others proved their ignorance and let their huge ego's be their fall.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Chris Inner circle lybrary.com 1177 Posts |
Dan, it does mean a lot to me. Thank you very much.
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
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sourcerer Regular user Netherlands 175 Posts |
Just came back to this thread to see the 'resolve'. Chris should just have split a card he printed and see if it would end up with 3 layers and the whole issue could have been put to rest 2 pages earlier ;o)
Nice find though, Chris...although that would be understating it. It's not something you happened to bump into. Great work. If I could afford all the toys needed (and would be artistically gifted) I'd be happy as a clam, but alas, I'm not at all. I'll just hope someone will start offering some more off-color bikes now - I'd love to be able to buy rainbow one way force decks for packet effect construction. Somehow, despite all the legal hassle with Bicycle :o( Kaj |
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