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ReverendDave New user 18 Posts |
So if what Bill says is true, i.e. that simply knowing the *effect* gives you enough info that you would not have an incentive to buy it, doesn't that make the 25 buyer limit somewhat moot? I mean, unless the creator is hoping that other mentalists never see the effect (which is not very probable if this is truly a mind bender), shouldn't every mentalist be able to perform this upon seeing it performed by another?
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Mark Elsdon Loyal user 249 Posts |
Good point!
In fact whilst simply knowing the overall premise WOULD tip you off as to what the basic effect is, it would still be impossible for you to perform TLW without some of the other 'stuff' that comes as part of the package. I am, of course, not naive enough to think that knowledge of what the basic effect is won't get around eventually. However, since 99% of the people involved in mentalism (and magic) are really just secret-collectors (I'm not knocking that, merely making the observation) then as soon as they eventually hear what the premise is they are likely to comment something along the lines of, "Oh, The Last Word? Yeah it's just..." and dimiss it. Secret collected, time to move on. Great! That's what I want them to do! On a closely related subject, the NDA, this is what I replied to an email inquiry: "The NDA is just to stop (slow down?) the people who buy The Last Word from talking about it on the forums and performing it at the teach-a-trick night at their local magic club. ANY kind of public performance is of course absolutely fine. Since the basics of the presenational concept (which is partly what you are buying, along with some other 'stuff') could easily be described in a few sentences, I wanted to stop anyone just blabbing about it online really. That said, despite the simplicity of the concept, I honestly believe that to a working perfomer this presentation is well worth the money. So much so that I'm willing to back it with that money-back guarantee! There is also far more depth to it than I have perhaps made it sound, with a lot of subtleties and nuances that amplify the effect greatly. Plus there's that 'stuff'... In performance, it's a killer." I hope this illuminates things further... Cheers, ME
Check out The View From Here:
http://elsdon.blogspot.com/ |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
I'm sure Mark's work will be stolen once it's out there. At least he'll be able to look at himself in the mirror and see the real creative force behind it and not just another thief.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
And hopefully a few quid before everybody is doing it.
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Can anyone tell me what the rubik cube is?
Obviously it can't be what 'I' think it is since I do rubik cube. So... what happens in THIS one?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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ReverendDave New user 18 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-02 18:53, bobser wrote: As far as I can tell, the creator is selling the *effect* as much as (if not more than) the method. So telling you what it is would be like giving it away for free. So I guess if you trust the guy, you buy it and hope for the best (though he offers a money back guarantee if you do not like it, so technically there is no risk there)? |
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Mark Elsdon Loyal user 249 Posts |
Bobser,
It's a secret! Cheers, ME
Check out The View From Here:
http://elsdon.blogspot.com/ |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Only on magic forum would someone sell or buy what they don't even know what is.
In fact I think this is the first manuscript Ive ever seen or not seen that does this. is this a new trend in marketing to mentalists? If colin twisted his arm for the manual after seeing it why can't the effect be described as the audience sees it? It seems to me that there is something not quite right. |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts |
I completely disagree Mindpunisher. See my earlier posts for the reasons why.
And, as I explained, I could not come close to explaining the effect of The Fource or even of any of most of the many contributions. So this is certainly not the first time someone has sold a manuscript where the buyer doesn't know what the product is. I think this factor exists on a continuum. Lior Manor's posts and ads for Mobile Opener were like Mark's, at the far end of the continuum where next to nothing could be said about the effect. Both were able to offer some insight into how a professional entertainer can make use of the effect and some of the benefits in performance. Now that I think of it, if my memory serves me correctly, Lior faced this same dilemna with his even more expensive Big Trivia. And Andrew Gerard ran into similar problems with Key Accessory. In all cases the products were highly praised. At the other far end of the continuum are items where the creator/seller has the option of being completely transparent. When possible this is my personal preference and I always encourage it among the creative minds I know. These cases usually involve props that would be too expensive to manafacture individually so their is little risk to the seller. As a matter of fact I believe, and I know not everyone shares this belief, that being transparent with certain products is more likely to increasee sales than sabotage them. When I see what has gone into some products and know precisely how it works I am often more inspired to make a purchase. And I know many others who do share this belief. Please do not allow this thread to be hijacked anyone, but I was somewhat in the middleground with my just announced contest. I could have been more subtle but decided to go for complete transparency. I certainly hope I'm right in my decision just as I believe Mark is correct and completely ethical in his. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>As a matter of fact I believe, and I know not everyone shares this belief, that being transparent with certain products is more likely to increasee sales than sabotage them. When I see what has gone into some products and know precisely how it works I am often more inspired to make a purchase. And I know many others who do share this belief<<<<
That is my point and I agree with the above. However if Colin says its good it is good. |
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Mark Elsdon Loyal user 249 Posts |
Brian,
You quote: >>>>As a matter of fact I believe, and I know not everyone shares this belief, that being transparent with certain products is more likely to increasee sales than sabotage them. When I see what has gone into some products and know precisely how it works I am often more inspired to make a purchase. And I know many others who do share this belief<<<< I too agree with this, particularly the part that says "with certain products". It's just that The Last Word isn't one of those products. Bill, Thank you for your continued support and your understanding of my decision to market TLW in the way I have. You're exactly right with the similarities to The Fource and Big Trivia. Anyways, there are only twelve left now, so I guess that by this time next week it will all be irrelevant... Cheers, ME
Check out The View From Here:
http://elsdon.blogspot.com/ |
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dmoses Inner circle 2261 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-03 12:21, mindpunisher wrote: I don't that's entirely accurate, mp. the currency being exchanged isn't anonymous stuff. it's trust. some one who's work I enjoy, supported by another's whose work I'm familiar with, is offering a presentation for sale. he's told me what it involves in a general sense. more than enough information for me to make up my mind. not only that he respects me enough to offer a guarantee! if I didn't know the people involved it might be different but I do so... I'm with bill, I prefer to do business this way.
"You're a comedian. You wanna do mankind a service, tell funnier jokes."
TPR by Dave Moses and Iain Dunford T-shirts for Magicians and Mentalists |
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Colin Inner circle Las Vegas 1355 Posts |
Reason I bought it... Well two reasons, one- to have the right to perform it, two- I could have just started doing it, but mark has put the work into the certain something you'll need!
I can't obviously say it will suit everyone, however I liked it enough to learn to solve the cube! I'm sure that's saying something! Col
Check out Psych-Artist.com now for free essays and other resources.
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Joshua Quinn Inner circle with an outer triangle 2054 Posts |
I'm among those who have ordered this. Yes, I sent that much money to a man I've never even met in person, in exchange for a routine whose effect I don't even know. Why? Because for a long time I've liked the idea of using a Cube in mentalism, but none of the offerings I've seen so far have quite fit me. And because from what I've seen of Mark's other work, I have reason to believe this might. If it does, it will be worth the price. And if it doesn't, and I decide I won't use it, I trust Mark to honor his money-back guarantee. Not only do I see no problem with the way he's is going about this, but I actually applaud it, and could see myself doing something similar (high-ish price + limited quantity + money back guarantee) for some future releases of my own.
Every problem contains the seeds of its own solution. Unfortunately every problem also contains the seeds of an infinite number of non-solutions, so that first part really isn't super helpful.
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.m New user Sheffield UK 4 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-03 12:21, mindpunisher wrote: Possibly, mind, there are bankers too... Quote:
It seems to me that there is something not quite right. My take, basically (yes, I'm one who's bought TLW) is that it's a worthwhile punt and not overly expensive (I paid 75 UK Pounds some 30+ years ago for a set of ZigZag plans - and if you're too young to know what 75 UK Pounds was worth 30+ years ago, believe me, it was a lot of money!). I've absolutely no issue with paying someone for their ideas. If they turn their ideas into something workable - even better. I've no connection with Mark - Only met him briefly a few months ago in Sheffield and saw him do RR. I'm new to Magic Café by the way |
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.m New user Sheffield UK 4 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-02 16:21, Mark Elsdon wrote: I can vouch for that. I can also vouch for the fact that you'll always know who's learned the method from RR as they'll have Blue on top! Quote:
If you order TLW I'll happily throw in my Rubik Remembered (which teaches my full solution) as a gift. I've two copies of RR - can I have RP instead - as I'm not going to Blackpool this year? (Rhetorical question...) |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
The only comment I would have here is that at $150 and selling only 25 leaves Mark with the Kings Ransom of $3,750. Not a lot of money. Had I been Mark I would have sold this for much more or mass marketed it. As I would believe that when one produces an effect and markets it he hopes to earm more than $3,750 before expenses and time and effort. So to any who are thinking of purchasing this because they believe they can use it. What the heck are you waiting for? It has to be a steal no matter how you look at it. You know you are going to waste more than $150 this year on stuff you will probably never use.
If you are on the fence about this you deserve to miss out on it if you wait.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Well, back from Africa so took the plunge. I'm after corporate material so hope this is worth learning the cube. While I agree with mindpunisher, Elsdon has proved to be a creative mind and no Johnny come lately in this industry. $150 is really a small price to pay for a well honed routine so I'm hopeing not to use the refund option Mark has so generously provided. His confidence in offering this puts me at ease, not for the money, but that it is indeed a professional presentation.
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.m New user Sheffield UK 4 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-05 16:03, takeachance wrote: FWIW, I'm of the generation that missed the cube in the 80s - as it was what the children were playing with. These days it has become a universally recognised icon though, and so fits easily into contemporary culture and nicely bridges generations. The perception that 'it's hard to do' is such a strong image in peoples' minds that it doesn't really matter if you get it down to 2 minutes, so long as the presentation is inclusive and participatory. When I saw Mark do it, he deliberately dropped the cube and asked someone to hand it back to him - this is a remarkably powerful element. Age and arthritis has led to me moving away from coins-n-cards (although I do still always carry a flipper and folder), and I was a little concerned that the cube may not be easily 'do-able' from a dexterity point of view. I'd suggest paying a little more and getting a good quality cube - not one of the 99c ones that has a difficult 'stiff' action. As far as learning goes, I'd thoroughly recommend Rubik Remembered. Mark has a good teaching style that will enable you to (as he says) grasp the basics within a week. You'll find the moves from stage 5 a little confusing at first, well, more where each of moves 5, 6 or 7 need to be used, but that soon goes - as does the feeling that your head is about to explode. Quote:
$150 is really a small price to pay for a well honed routine so I'm hopeing not to use the refund option Mark has so generously provided. His confidence in offering this puts me at ease, not for the money, but that it is indeed a professional presentation. That was pretty much my feeling. I don't do much commercial stuff these days at all, mainly just charity work to keep my (arthritic) hand in during retirement. My guess is that I'll return tenfold the $150 within a couple of months. If I were working this professionally, I'd probably recoup my money in a night tabling. Currently waiting for the postman... |
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Lior Inner circle 1961 Posts |
I am sure that the people who will get it will be very happy.
Mark is giving you something that he used many times and he is a real pro. Like Mark, I sell some of my stuff for a lot of money (ie: The Big Trivia game) and I will sell more new effects very soon. Some of the things are just a presenation, and they are for the pros only. I can not describe them as well...and this is a big problem for the armchair mentalist Lior
The Lior Touch
https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 |
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