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BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Hello everyone,
For those of you who don't know, I've been one of the primary moderators for the Magicanada forums for the last few years, a project that was the creation of Michael Kras. He and I envisioned a forum by and for new/young magicians to have a community of their own, where they could essentially create a shared conception of magic together as part of their learning process. Magicanada, after years of a small but dedicated user base, is hardly functioning anymore. Mike and I have been looking into it, and we've spoken about ways that we could try again and make this kind of a project work better the second time around. This project would not be in any way a replacement or substitute for the Café, but rather a supplement. In a way, it would be like having an entire forum dedicated to the kinds of questions, concerns, and issues that are frequently brought up here in the New to Magic part of the Café - but with an underlying goal driving the tone of the forum. My question is, how many of you would be interesting in seeing something like this come to life? I am willing to put some real time and effort into making this kind of a place a reality and building a quality user base where new/young magicians can discover and create their conception of magic as a community. Please respond here with your thoughts and whether or not you'd be interested. Thank you kindly for your time, Brian |
Servaas Koomen Regular user 138 Posts |
Sorry, I can find everything I want/need already.
"The last three or four reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That's what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they'll go through the pain no matter what" A.
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michaelmystic2003 Inner circle 3062 Posts |
I'm not sure you understand... Our concept is something that allows the independent development of youth in magic, where we help each other learn and grow as performers.
Learn more about my upcoming book of close up magic and theory SYNTHESIS & SECRETS: A Magic Book in Four Acts: https://www.michaelkrasworks.com/synthesis-secrets
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Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
And this would be different how from what goes on here at the Magic Café?
Real classy kind of thing Trolling the Café to get eyes for your efforts Would all Brian Miller's material be advertised at this new or revamped venue? Doesn't it tell you something that your efforts there are almost dead? Of course on the plus side you wouldn't have my caustic attitude and assistance Nor my experience, understanding and studies to help My opinion is most "new magicians" need their chops busted until they respect the art, if they start with a respect for the art no need for chop busting. and what is this underlying goal you speak of?? What can you do that the Magic Café already doesn't do? What can you offer better than what is here?
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Cody Comet Loyal user Louisville, KY 201 Posts |
I'm not "new" at magic, but I am a teenage magician and I applaud your efforts. I like the idea of a forum on the Café for the young/teenage magicians to discuss their unique challenges as young/teenage magicians and to talk about their upcoming big gigs too! You should approach Steve Brooks about creating a forum on here for the young/teenage magicians like me. A new forum for the younger set would assist the young magicians in their development, not hinder them. On the forum, we could tell them what bad habits to avoid and how/why they need to respect the art of magic. And other stuff like that too. Let me know if I can help you!
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BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-17 16:31, Cody Comet wrote: Cody: This would not be a part of the Magic Café, but rather a separate site. But your enthusiasm is appreciated. Vick: Anybody on the Café who's ever seen you respond to something I've said knows you have a grudge against me. My goal on this new site is to offer an entire forum based on the kinds of issues that are rampant throughout the New to Magic section of the Café. It would be much more organized into subsections for clarity, and it would be designed primarily for young magicians only to have a community of their own, in addition to (not in place of) the Café so that they may grow to understand magic together as the next generation of upcoming magicians. The Café is a wonderful place, but the younger generation's needs are not always best served here amongst a vast array of established workers and "older" opinions. Yes, these mature opinions are crucial and need to be heard by the young generation, but as I've stated repeatedly, this new forum would be a supplement to, not a replacement for, the Café. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Might I suggest talking to Steve Brooks about such a section here on the Café'?
Cody suggested it and it makes sense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
I'm still stuck at "new" - I've been doing magic for a while, but I never get very far before I go back and start all over again. I don't see myself as having 12 years experience - more like 1 year 12 times over!!
I do have, however, 26 years experience in raising four children all the way through their teen years into adulthood. In my never-to-be-humble opinon on this, most teens are very ill-served by "teen-centric" areas. They usually learn a lot of attitudes that later must be unlearned if they are to progress in life. let's face it - life is run by us old fogeys. I do not need to get their point of view - they need to get mine. Unique challenges? Like us older guys were never young and therefore have zero clue about being a teen? Teens need to learn three basic things: -- They don't understand how much they don't understand -- Us elders *do* understand what they don't understand -- If they will drop their attitudes and give us a respectful listening, and ask honest questions without trying to prove they can drive me in the dirt, then they might learn something. Not saying they don't have great ideas and they can't know things I don't - I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and my kids have taught me plenty. But there's a lot of just plain life that goes into creating a platform for the specific bits of knowledge collected along the way. And teens may amass a big collection of knowledge, but they are woefully shy of life experience. If they can drop the attitudes and respectfully listen to their elders, then we are more than willing to listen to the fresh new ideas and perspectives they have that we don't. I personally think all the above applies to magic, too. [/soapbox] Ed |
BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Ed,
I stated the following in a private message to someone, and I will repeat it here: I have enormous respect for the mature, experienced, working guys on the Café, and anywhere. I've gotten to where I am (and will continue to grow) because of guys like that. I studied under Bill Butski, Vic Trabucco, Karl Norman, Garrett Thomas, etc. However, I believe that if the youth of magic had their own place in addition to the wisdom of experienced workers, then they could all ask questions and provide answers for each other with unrestricted freedom. This would enhance a community sense among the youth in magic to create a new vision of magic that is their own. That's what I want to see. And I care about it. One last time, a supplement to the wisdom of the mature, not a substitute. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I think reading "Lord of the Flies" would be good.
I do see what Brian is trying to do. One thing that just occured to me Brian and it makes sense. Do you think the people who are attracted to the idea, will be as mature and have the same attitude you do?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
Brian
You didn't address many of the issues I've raised It's not a classy gesture to troll for a new board on an established board. Do you see that??!! Get your ego in check Brian, I don't have an issue with you, it's your ideas. On the stage, you do a really good job. You are a solid performer Trying to write about theory at 20???? No, you don't have enough life experience Let's look at the young people you want to help..... Where will they get better info From performers with decades of experience ...... or someone who has barely been alive for 2 decades??? What "needs" aren't best served here? and Dannydoyle has a great idea, why not try to do it here? Do you care about serving the "needs" of those you describe? Or trying to sell them your wares? Of if you don't want to try to do it here Why don't you go do it and stop talking about it and trolling for people to follow Or maybe go troll Penguin boards
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Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
P.s.
What has the younger generation in magic given us lately? Extreme Card Magic? Let's put extreme card magic on a scale versus say Penn & Teller's American flag inside the Bill of Rights What touches you, what stays with you, what makes you think and feel? What is art .... and What is eye candy One day you will have the life experience that allows you to see these things in a broader scope
Unique, Thought Provoking & Amazing Magical Entertainment Experiences
Illusions By Vick Blog of a real world working magician Magic would be great, if not for magicians |
BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Vick,
First of all, I despise the eye candy magic of today. It's one of the things I'm strongly, STRONGLY, trying to get the younger kids away from. You don't know what my personal beliefs on theory and performance are, so don't be so quick to judge them. Second, I have studied theory extensively given my age. Have I studied ALL the classics? No, of course not. I'm working through them vigorously. It's what I'm trained to do in philosophy, and I apply it to magic. Thirdly, for the last time, and I can't believe I have to state this again, I'm not looking to replace the wisdom of the older guys. I'm looking to give the younger generation a chance to explore on their own IN ADDITION TO that wisdom, which simply doesn't happen around here. Lastly, people talk about other forums on the Café all the time. It's not a new idea, nor is it forbidden, and Steve knows me to be a respectful individual. Not to mention thethird point that I shouldn't have to keep repeating, I'm not trying to take people away from the Café. I'm trying to give them something in addition to it that I believe would serve them greatly as part of a holistic approach. As for getting info and my products, neither of these are my goal. My products will not be advertised on this new forum, and my personal ideas, believe it or not, will not be pushed. My goal, for the 10th or so time in this thread, is to let the younger generation develop a sense of magic amongst themselves that is unrestricted. I want them to develop a vision of what magic is and what is should be together. Don't you understand that so much of the rebellion against the magic that you and I want to do in this young generation is just because they're immersed in our magic, are being told THAT'S what they should do, and are doing anything they can to get away from it? No different than a teenager rebelling against his parents just because he can. These kids should have a place without that (in addition to places with it) so that they can discover what magic really means to them as a community. Don't be so quick to dismiss of my ideas. Likely, most of my ideas are in line with yours. It's my approach to seeing them through that differs. |
Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
Good stuff Brian, thanks
(I like busting your chops so you get all your ideas out in a passionate fashion) If someone could see you work and then you go over the why and structure that could be a good thing Plus a younger generation (or at least some) might take it better from you than an older guy. Guess I still don't get why you wouldn't try it here on the Café, there is a built in audience. That's seems to be some of the problem with Magicanada Do you think some won't approach it because ......... Seems like you have your mind around the issues of some things have to be taught in a certain fashion or by an experienced performer Then again some things still are best shared in person Good luck to you p.s. I'll never not have an issue with someone in their 20's teaching theory ;-) That's the providence of old men, not the teaching but the issue ;-) Now back on course, who would like to see something like Brian is proposing?
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Cody Comet Loyal user Louisville, KY 201 Posts |
Though I wouldn't mind a new forum, I want you to seriously consider your idea being a part of the Café and not a separate forum. A seperate forum might work out, but a forum for teens still needs some adult influences. And of course we've got plenty of them here. With plentiful adult influences to help teens with their questions, they can get several different opinions on various matters and decide what works best for them rather than feeling that they have to listen to the advice of just one or two adults b/c they're the only ones the teens have to listen too. But since the forum would be designated for teens, it will still be mostly teen participants with the advice of over 40,000 adults on the Café to asist them in their journey. There are other reasons why this would work out better on the Café, but you said you wanted it to be a supplement and a supplement is not something that's totally new. One more thing to keep in mind is that I'm in your targeted demographic and I think it'd work out better on here.
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dmueller Loyal user Central Illinois 227 Posts |
Brian,
I like the idea of what you are trying to do. I also think the people who say just make it part of the Café are missing the point. If it were to be made a part of the Café it would be overrun in no time with the same bickering that you get in the rest of the Café. Many times I have seen someone's point of view shot down just because they were less experienced. Not based on the merits of their view, just their experience level. Not everybody had the opportunity to table hop at The Last Supper. Admittedly for every one good idea that comes along there are about 10 absolutely horrid ones. I think a happy compromise would be to make a Café membership mandatory for all members of your forum. Yes it would create a good deal of extra work, but I think well worth it. It would give them a place where they could be themselves and also a place where they can benefit from the more experienced members found here. |
Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
There's a bunch of other magic forums out there already - the Magic Café isn't the only game in town. So having one more forum or not isn't really going to make much difference.
What I see in a youth-centered forum is that most of the ideas are going to be from a youth's perspective, which is simply by reality lacking the depth of experience. But if that's all you have feeding into that "gene pool", that's all you will produce. If you are saying you will introduce "old men" ideas into that forum, then I have to ask what the difference is between the Café and your forum. If they reject "old men" on the Café, then they will reject you when you start talking like one. Are you trying to keep them "safe" from "us"? Then I have to ask why *you* don't agree with "us"? Is it because they feel more comfortable with their own peers? I totally agree with that, and remember that feeling well (even though it _was_ a long time ago!!). But I can look back now and realize the feeling of alienation from my elders was because I believed they just wanted to oppose me and push me back in my little corner - and they did that by asking questions that made me think through what I was doing. In reality, youth hates being challenged, and so they band together with like minds - and shut out the questions that make them think and grow. Yeah, we're talking magic, not life decisions. Except that for many youth, magic will be a "big deal" in their life, giving them a feeling of self-worth and power and identity that they are not getting from the rest of life. And unless you're willing to simply spend hours alone practicing so you can shoot YouTube videos and brag on Internet forums, magic is going to be about interacting with live people - to perform, to ask for help, and to get outed and your chops busted when you horribly screwed up in front of someone who knows more than you do. You don't learn to handle that nestled safe amongst your peer group. _That_ is life! And it's also a huge part of magic. Okay, Brian. I guess me 'n Vick will go totter off now to our old fogey meeting and you young'uns can go play or whatever! 8>) Seriously, you do have some excellent thoughts, and Vick's assessment of you and your magician-ship speaks volumes, thoguh I don't know you personally. I'm confident that you are not thinking of some other "eye candy" "learn to be David Blaine" forum. If you can make young magicians turn out like you, then the magic community will be well-served. Cheers! Ed |
BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-19 12:02, dmueller wrote: Bingo. I was hoping this point would have been clear without me stating it explicitly. |
dmueller Loyal user Central Illinois 227 Posts |
One thing that 10 years behind the wheel of a semi is that you can never assume that people understand you unless you spell it out for them. Just one of the many lessons life on the road taught me, but one not easily forgotten once learned.
Another thought, I am not sure where I stand on restricting it to younger audiences. There are people who don't get started till later in life, and they could benefit from this idea of yours as well. Along with giving the "younger" crowd a certain balancing factor as well. I am a perfect example. I didn't learn my first effect till age 30. Teenagers (and their ego's) don't tend to play well with others on the internet, especially if they know the other person is a teenager as well. Sign on to x-box live or just about any MMORPG to see what I mean. |
Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-02-19 12:32, Ed_Millis wrote: Sorry Ed, can't hear you, need new batteries in my hearing aid ;-)
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