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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
I have been meaning to make this post about free download sites for quite awhile.
Almost every day - No, make that every day - I am notified by Google Alerts that my products; videos, books and even instructions, can be downloaded for free. It is not just my material, of course, but everyone's. Most of these sites cannot be shut down. There is not some huge hard drive out there where it all comes from. Every individual who downloads illegally becomes a source for the next guy. It makes you wonder what kind of mentality would upload a product in the first place? There is only way to control this deplorable process. It is too big to be handled by "laws." The only solution is morality. There is no doubt in my mind that over 99% of this community would never even consider this type of behavior. But perhaps some newcomers to this board might not understand the implications of free downloading or even what it truly is. It is stealing! Pure and simple. It is taking another persons property in exactly the same way as stealing their wallet. What makes it even more despicable is the very nature of magic and mentalism. It is the "secrets" that have the real value. Unlike a movie or song, which deprives the artist and production company their due revenue (which is certainly bad enough), in magic this practice means the dissemination of "secret" information that has great importance to everyone in the guild, whether they do that particular material or not. It destroys the very art itself, not just financial concerns. If you know of anyone who uses these sites, I would hope you would have the courage to tell them how wrong free downloading is. Tell them, if they do it, they are thieves. Richard |
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Sid Helkule Inner circle Australia 1481 Posts |
Sadly Richard, I believe that there is a lot more than 1% of the community trading products and uploading. And I fear that it is only going to get worse...
Disgusting, really. |
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
Did one of you ever copied an audio-cd? Can you honestly deny that question?
I don't want to defend the thievery of intellectual property, but I think a part of the problem is, that most people first recognize it, when it is their property that's got stolen. The fact, that the stolen item is copied is another factor. Most people don't realize that it's still thievery and that they are stealing ideas. Being a musician I can relate to this topic quite well. Even if I didn't publish any mentalism-material so far. Best, Lexa |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 09:55, Lexa wrote: NO. I have never copied an audio CD. |
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
Richard is absolutely correct in every respect. Unfortunately, I must agree with Luke that the problem is far more widespread than just 1% of the community and, like Luke, I fear that it is likely to get worse before it gets any better. Much of the blame must be attributed to the proliferation of access to magic on the Internet -- not just to YouTube and the various bit torrent file-sharing sites, but, I hate to say, bulletin boards, newsgroups and forums such as the Café that allow virtually unrestricted access to anyone with access to the Internet. The result is that the worthy objective of "magicians helping magicians" quickly devolves to "opening the door to the merely curious."
I don't believe that the problem will ever go away. The "secrets" of magic have been being exposed, often egregiously, since Reginald Scott's "Discoverie of Witchcraft" if not before. It has expanded exponentially with the advent of the Internet. While it will never go away, it can be reduced if every Internet site devoted to the discussion of magic implemented a truly stringent -- and strictly enforced -- set of requirements for demonstrating a real "need to know" or "by invitation only" standard before being granted access. Most of the supposed "screening" procedures I've encountered on such sites (e.g., name the author of the book the title of which begins with "13 Steps" or such) are so ineffective as to be meaningless. Having said all of that, while I neither support nor condone exposure in any form, I still maintain that we magicians are far more fixated on our "secrets" than are laymen. I firmly believe that the average layman gives serious thought to how the tricks are done for about as long as it takes to walk from the theater to the parking lot before he shifts his/her attention to the more pressing concerns of his/her everyday life. I think that the exposures resulting from sorry performances by inept performers pose a far greater threat to the art of magic than all of the "masked magicians" combined. IMO there is more than a grain of truth in Jim Steinmeyer's alleged remark that "Magicians guard an empty safe."
Dick Christian
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
Quote:
It is stealing! Pure and simple. It's not. Copyright is infringed, not stolen. Both are immoral, but the argument is a lot more complex and nuanced than you are claiming. Richard, while you may not have copied a CD, have you ever been to a magic library? Or read a book belonging to a friend?
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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lucavolpe Inner circle Italy - London 3349 Posts |
Me and Titanas we just had a problem with one BLOG that was giving my latest dvd for free download and many other products pirated!
Finally, we had good result and now they delete some of the links! But,sadly, this is just one of them! ;(
Luca Volpe
"The Italian Mentalist" https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/lucavolpe http://www.lucavolpe.com |
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chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
Davit just stop while you are ahead.
Luke not that I don't already have you busy, but we need to get to work. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Now come the "arguments" where people stretch the limits of the original argument to try and "win it"...
extremist examples just to aim for the glory of the win...tsk tsk tsk... the big difference I'd say is, someone lends you a cd, you like it - you give it back and then go buy it... never seen the point in streaming or whatever else - just 'cos its free...i've got a nice laptop screen, got a good tv, why do I want to spoil that with bad quality pictures when all I have to do is wait a little while, spend a small amount of money on the dvd/cd/download? don't get it.. with magic and mentalism its worse - the steps between the creator and the purchaser is smaller - its not like music, which is bought by people with no intention of performing those songs, nor films where people can't/won't go out and perform that film on the streets...its an invalid comparison... magic/mentalism though - there's that inherent closeness...someone created a method and routine, shares it with friends, its performed, fine tuned, then eventually sold to BE USED BY OTHER ENTERTAINERS... but instead, they go and make copies of it for other so called entertainers, and swop it...not to entertain, but to get more free stuff...to hoarde this weird "knowledge base"...they may know how its done, but do they use it? I would say the majority don't, its just an endless cycle of sharing... if it were their own work - fine...but its not. And a) its stops people who invented something decent, and were willing to share it, make a few quid in the processs...b) makes them less likely to put more out... if you can name me a band or a director who has said that, I'd be interested. But I bet you can't...because its different.
I've asked to be banned
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Sid Helkule Inner circle Australia 1481 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 10:27, chichi711 wrote: *slaps his own hand "Yes master, back to work master..." I considered joining in on this discussion further, but realised that I would soon fall victim to all the "have you never taped off the radio in the eighties" or "have you never ripped one of your own CDs" comments... As per usual I like and agree with Dick's post. The man speaks the truth. |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 10:22, Davit Sicseek wrote: NO David, IT IS stealing! When you download material you are not creating a new product that is very close to the original. That is copyright infringement. In this case the product IS the recording and to download it, instead of paying for it, is STEALING!!!!! What is a magic library? Are you referring to places that rent material that is copyrighted and says on the package "Not for Rental"? If so, then the answer to THAT question is also a big NO! I spent half my life as a professional musician. I recorded in studios for many years including doing radio jingles, TV music, etc. I KNOW what it is to own the rights to something and who has to be paid, who owns material, etc. As to someone lending me a book ... what the heck are you talking about??? If anyone can't see the differnce between looking at a friend's book, or STEALING something off the Internet, they are really morally drained. Richard |
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Mark Timon Special user 594 Posts |
This thread is completely sterile.
There is not such a thing " secrets" in the magic community because if you sell them inside a book /dvd, they are no "secrets" anymore. Wanting to change how the things are in the internet, is useless. Morality hat nothing to do with it, it's Economy. Sometimes after I downloaded a Dvd/Book a thanked the Gods for not having bought it. Others instead after reading/watching some parts of it I decided to buy it. I'm sinner as the majority of the people reading this post. Of course only the "good guys" would post in this thread because others would hide. Regards |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 11:14, Mark Timon wrote: And therein lies the whole problem. |
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Sid Helkule Inner circle Australia 1481 Posts |
Richard, I get the point that Davit is making. How do you feel about your personal work (whether it is books or DVD's) being made available to members of 'magic clubs' because they have purchased said item as part of their library? Do your DVD's and books contain a 'not for rental' clause like you stated above?
I am not trying to stir anything up here, but I am genuinely interested as to your thoughts on the subject. I am also interested in whether it is common practice for creators to have the 'no rental' clause in their packaging or credits. I don't remember seeing it on the L&L DVD's though I am most likely just forgetting it. |
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
Quote:
NO David, IT IS stealing! When you download material you are not creating a new product that is very close to the original. That is copyright infringement. In this case the product IS the recording and to download it, instead of paying for it, is STEALING!!!!! Thankfully in this instance the disagreement is far less subjective. I kindly refer you to this link (there's plenty similar) which explains why pirating isn't 'theft' neither legally nor in more wooley terms. http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=1655 Before anyone suggests otherwise, I do agree that pirating is wrong but to call it theft over simiplifies a more complex argument and does a disservice to those that want to solve the problem of priacy. Quote:
What is a magic library? Are you referring to places that rent material that is copyrighted and says on the package "Not for Rental"? If so, then the answer to THAT question is also a big NO! No. I'm talking about regular libraries - like the one the Magic Castle runs. Like the one that magic and psychic entertainment clubs and organisations operate the world over. I strongly suspect the answer is yes. Quote:
As to someone lending me a book ... what the heck are you talking about??? If anyone can't see the differnce between looking at a friend's book, or STEALING something off the Internet, they are really morally drained. This type of thinking is evidence of the fact that the argument is a lot more complex that you were suggesting. I think most here would agree that the first two scenarios are wrong, but I suspect there is wide disagreement about the others. Downloading the latest work from rapidshare - Wrong Swapping an ebook with a friend generating a 2nd copy - Wrong Using a 'digital library' where one may access books electronically, but only one person may read each book at a time - ???? Using a regular library where only one person may read each book at a time - ???? Borrowing a book or DVD from a friend - ???? Watching or reading a dvd/book at a friends house - ???? Reselling a product and using the money to buy another, then reselling that and buying another, and so on... - ???? Personally I don't agree with 'magic libraries' - BUT... I don't see any difference whatsoever between a magic library under one roof and a digital library that only allows each title to be accessed by one person at a time.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-09 11:19, Luke Shield wrote: Yes they do. Take a look at any L&L video. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Here's the difference between lending someone a book for a while, and pirating work and putting it up on sites to share...
I lend a book to luke (not that he can read without the use of a ruler or his mouth moving)...he gives it back after a couple of weeks grunting "made brain hurt..", but he goes out and buys it for an imaginary friend as a present... then... luke lends me a book, I scan it and put it on a share-site for up to 1.8 billion people to access...for free, forever... wooly semantics don't come into it..
I've asked to be banned
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
At least he (Mark Timon) tells HIS truth. I respect that at least. Some folks just won't call it stealing but that they have a right, "Those music companies have enough money!" etc It's a sick logic and the entitlement mentality that the new generation has adopted.
I personally do not think it will stop only get worse. But you know what most of the shlubs that steal only do it cause they can. They hord this stuff noever look at it. They buy more and more hard disk space so they can store their stolen goods. So in a way they are helping out the ecomomy. Well, gotta go to work to pay the way for the other 47 million that don't pay taxes. Heh, heh. some more politics. Hey, I bet there's a correlation between people that steal and those that are in the 47 million that don't pay taxes? Could be, it's just a thought tossed out there ... cause I can. John |
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Mark: the question isn't whether there are secrets in the magic community. It's whether the intellectual work of one person should be allowably taken by others in the community without compensation to the creator.
Your suggestion that it is pure economics and not morality can be applied equally (and just as poorly) to shoplifting. You've downloaded pirated materials. And although you apparently find it soothing to your conscience to believe that the majority of the people reading your post has done the same, it makes no difference. You are personally responsibile for your actions. And stealing the product of others is stealing, no matter how many other thieves are in line behind you. Your actions are the reason why artists who deserve to be making a better living by getting a fair price for their creative work cannot. Your actions are the reason why some of the best thinking in our field will never be published at any price. Your actions are the reason why magic as a performing art is in a downward spiral, as our techniques fall too freely into the hands of people who do not value them and who therefore think nothing of exposure through torrents and YouTube. Thanks.
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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Mark Timon Special user 594 Posts |
Quote:
Your quote of: "There is not such a thing " secrets" in the magic community" Hi Luke Thanks for your kind words. If your idea of a "secret" is: something that is sold worldwide and still remains a "secret". You are very innocent or I don't know what! Regards. |
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