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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Branding for Magicians: What is a brand? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Neale Bacon
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If you want to read a great book on this whole subject is one called
"The Secrets of Power Marketing Brand YOU" By Peter Urs Bender

It is on promoting you as the product which is what we all do.

It was great and very helpful.
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
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RobertBloor
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Quote:
Dean:

Wolfgang:"I'm just trying to offer some simple advice that comes from years of experience branding products and services.

DEAN:
Ah... now it become clearer... you are from the AGENCY background.

I see.


Dean,

We must be thinking in tandem because that's the exact thing I saw when I read Wolfgang's comments.

Wolfgang,
Certainly with all your experience with Nike and other major, 'brands' you'd know that branding IS a part of marketing. Not the other way around as your argue.

How long had Nike existed before 'Just Do It' came along?
How long had Nike been making shoes before they put Michael Jordan in them and branded them, "Air Jordans" ?

Nike was MARKETING a product long before Michael Jordan ever branded them.

Come on, Wolfgang. I genuinely believe you know a lot about marketing.

But I have to agree with Dean on your background. The corporate world has 'branded' you a pawn in their multi-billion dollar MARKETING plan and you don't even know it.

Happy Trails...
Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
RyanJonPilling
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Here is a whole different take on the definition of "branding". This time, it comes at you from a DESIGN background...

Branding has a very limited role in the marketing process. It is little more than a means of creating a connection between information in your brain, and a business.

(for you computer types... it works on the same model as a relational database)

Example:

You walk in a shoe store, glance across the wall, and notice a white sneaker with the swoosh. Your brain clicks in, recognizing that graphic image, and searches through the files looking for a match. It pulls up the information that you have tied to that image... everything you know about that company. Immediatly you know that swoosh means the white shoe is over-priced, low-quality, in-humanely manufactured hooey.

The way I see it, branding plays NO part in the marketing MESSAGE, but merely serves as a memory association aid. Nothing more than a "tag" attached to your marketing... like a signature.

The example I used above mentioned the mental connection (relationship) I have to that swoosh. You can see that the feelings the brand inspires are created not solely by the company's marketing message, but also by "outside information". (see: "Public Relations" the art of influencing outside perception)

A picture is worth a thousand words. The acid test for a brand is to see what words come to mind when you see JUST that brand, with no accompanying message.

For that to produce any positive results relies on the OTHER 99.99% of marketing tools and techniques. You have to build that brand relationship through a USP, a guarantee, incredible service, etc. That brand merely "comes along for the ride".

I guess that means, a brand is only as strong as your other marketing efforts.

-Ryan Pilling

P.S. Here's a nice example of "branding"... the human face. When you look at your freind, what comes to mind? The relationship that has been built with that person. However, the face itself had nothing to do with the development of that relationship.

P.P.S. Speaking of branding... when I see "TheDean" as the poster of a message, I know I can expect a passionate response, and I'll be on the lookout for a gem of wisdom or inspiration.
Playing Big - http://www.PlayingBig.net
A blog for performers about "Making Magic Out Of Tricks"
Wolfgang
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Attacking people then turning it around and claiming you're being attacked is a classic tactic of those with weak arguments.

There are those here who seem to confuse image advertising with branding; the two are not the same. People who actually practice real marketing for real companies understand this. Everything I've said here is standard, accepted practice by successful companies.

Or maybe I--along with every Fortune 500 company--am wrong.

I'll leave it to the members of The Café to decide who knows what they're talking about and who merely spouts hyped nonsense.

(Mr. Bloor, I'm honored you used your very first post at The Café to address me. You must be a mentalist, since you know I'm a "pawn" without ever having met me.)
"Sure, I do Scotch and Soda in every show. What? You mean there's a trick by that name?"
magic4u02
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Guys. Please.

This truly is becoming a "big kid on the playground thing" and my initial start of this thread was not meant to cause arguement. I started this thread to have an open discussion about branding and marketing yourself in the marketplace.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and that was what I was hoping I would see posted here. I wanted a lot of different opinions on this, as I know many people have different interpretations.

Differences of opinion are fine but arguing over who has the better definition is just plain silly and does not warrant deep thought or help anyone out.

If I must be honest, Wolfgang, you did seem to attack Dean here with your words in your answer to his post. Dean has not always agreed with what I have had to say, but I think he has always answered me like a true genetlemen. He gives his strong opinion and backs it up with the facts that he knows. He has never, ever come across as personally attacking anyone.

He also, to my knowledge, has never tried to sell anyone anything. I would have just chosen your words better is all. You certainly have a right to disagree with him, but you could have worded yourself better.

I am sure there are many people who know quite a lot on this subject and I look forward to hearing their comments on the subject. But, lets please stop the bickering and get back to discussing.
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Zack
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Gentlemen! Please! I'm sure we can have a very interesting discussion here if we can take down the level.

Wolfgang, I know Dean, and I can assure you that he never meant to attack you...this is merely a misunderstanding.

That being said, you did bring up some tantalizing points. Can you explain the difference between branding and image advertising?
TheDean
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I apologize if I have offended anyone with my comments. That is not my earnest intention and as importantly doesn't advance the cause of effective communications.

Wolfgang,
PLEASE accept my deepest and SINCERE apologies. Yes we can passionately agree, disagree, but I can honestly tell you are a well-thought man of character and we need more like you who ARE truly passionate regarding their beliefs... bless you!

Agree or disagree, can we agree to "make positive" this educational discussion and leave each to form their OWN opinions on "ALL" the perspectives, views, considerations, experiences and beliefs being offered in 'good-faith' and with no malice?

I leave it to you my friend!
Dean <== (Extending a gentlemen's hand and an olive branch)

Thanks to ALL who have contributed to this 'process... no matter your own views on this subject, one thing is for-sure: There Is NO Black and White on this issue!

Fair?

Once again, I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Rev Dean Hankey
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success!
"Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…"

(*Marketing Doctor) Smile
Eldon
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Branding, Image Advertising, Marketing. Who cares what we call it. We all get it!
RobertBloor
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Quote:
Wolfgang: (Mr. Bloor, I'm honored you used your very first post at The Café to address me.


You bet you are.

Quote:
Wolfgang: You must be a mentalist, since you know I'm a "pawn" without ever having met me.)


However I'm no mentalist. Isn't it amazing how much we can tell about people without ever having met them?

I mean, Wolfgang, you do bring up a good point here.
I have NEVER met you, and before I read your posts, had never even heard of you.

But wait - don't major corporations market to people they've NEVER heard of, DON'T know, and couldn't identify in a single person lineup?

If you've done all this work in marketing, (and I don't mean to insinuate you haven't by any means), then you're aware that when companies market they know squat about their clients.

Oh sure, they know their race, location, income, age bracket, tax bracket etc etc...

But do they really know THAT PERSON, GROUP, OR DEMOGRAPHIC?

NOPE!

They do the same thing I did...take a look a limited knowledge of a person (in this case, what you've written and your avatar) and they make a judgement on them.

Simple isn't it?

But that's where relationships fail.
I'm sure there is SO much more to you then what you've posted here.

That's why I don't bother with branding and disagree with it.
WHAT does it get me?

Precisely squat.

I count on my supportive, professional business relationships with my clients. I achieve those through marketing, not branding.

I have the luxury of CHOOSING who I want to work for. I help out a small number of clients EVERY year. I take care of the needs and wants and they take care of me. These are the companies that put food on my plate and gas in my car.

And I achieved these relationships through QUALITY, HONEST, EFFECTIVE marketing.

Do major corporations use brands?
YOU BET.
I've studied the best - the Walt Disney Corporation.
No one is better.
Do they brand? Sure!
But again, their brand is just part of the larger synergistic marketing plan they use.

Quote:
Eldon: Branding, Image Advertising, Marketing. Who cares what we call it. We all get it!


You sure about that?

Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence
NJJ
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RyanJonPilling said

"The way I see it, branding plays NO part in the marketing MESSAGE, but merely serves as a memory association aid. Nothing more than a "tag" attached to your marketing... like a signature."

Very true, the symbol will always create different expectations and ideas in people's minds.

However, consider this. If you walk in a shoe shop and see these

Smile Smile Smile Smile

and then you see Nike's swoosh, which picture would you be drawn to first? (even if you hate Nike as most humane people do...but lets not go there) You would probably see the Nike one and turn towards it. The brand image or logo is like a stop sign. Our minds sees something we recognise and we want to know why.

It is a symbol and an attractor.


gee...I need some new shoes....
Wolfgang
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If you go back and read The Dean's response to my first post (where I identify myself as an ad man), you will see the following quote:

"First-off, most of the ad houses (Rip-Off artists!) couldn't even TELL you what RESULT their so called (institutional, ego driven, image) marketing campaign even did to advance your cause!"

Right or wrong, I took this as an obvious, blatant attack against me personally. I was greatly offended by it. So I responded in the same manner, which was wrong.

My hope was to bring real-world experience to this topic. But it seems all I did was debase the discussion, so I think it best that I no longer participate in this thread.

I apologize for not upholding the high standards of The Café. The members here deserve better.
"Sure, I do Scotch and Soda in every show. What? You mean there's a trick by that name?"
magic4u02
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Thank you all both Dean and Wolfgang for being gentlemen about this and apologizing to us Café members. I think you both have a great deal to offer us here and hope that you will continue to share your knowledge with us.
Kyle Peron

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RickAllen
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Found this article, and thought it may add to this thread... Rick Smile

Click here for article.
Zack
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OK: I begain to think about magicians and what their "brand indentity" is

Dana Daniels: "The psychic parrot guy."

Amazing Johnathan: Freakazoid, in your face comedy.

Max Maven: Gothic, Dracula type.

Lance Burton: "Classic" magic

Mac King...Country Bumpkin
leefoley3
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Hey guys, This is truly one of the most intense threads I have yet to come across here at the Café. It has inspired me...to change my signature line, that used to read, "Make the difficult look easy, then make the easy look beautiful"-Jeff McBride. I have always thought this was a beautiful thought and statement.
I now feel that my new signature line may hopefully reach someone (not that I didn't feel the same way about Jeff's quote),but,as far as I know it's original. Think about it. Sad,but true.
In December of '06 I was diagnosed with a very rare cancer, Dermatofibrosarcoma Protuberans. One in a million people worldwide are diagnosed with this type of cancer annually. Sarcomas account for 1% of all cancers. Knowledge is power!
harris
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Very interesting posts.

Thanks for the food for thought.


I appreciate you all for taking the time to think and write your experiences.

IMHO it is important to "stand out" both from other entertainers and "stock magicians".

Although I am only doing the entertainment thing part time, I put a lot more thought into making my program better than I do on adding the latest "trick".

From my website, to my answering machine, to my conversation with potential consumers, to the nearly normal shows to follow up letters I try to convey an atmosphere of fun.

This is done through hand drawn pictures, primary and bright colors, words and conversation, listening, and connecting on a real level with people.

Re: answering machines. Does anyone out there use a service? I know several full timers use them in my area.

My machine welcomes and thanks people for calling Annie and Harris, The Nearly Normal Couple at their
Enchanted Cottage (old movie reference as well as fun name for our house). We always get back to people very quickly. Usually within 8 hours.

Just my 2 libery half dollar's worth.

Harris Deutsch
Laughologist and Nearly Normal Magician
http://www.nearlynormalmagic.com
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Tim Zager
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Rick

Thanks for sharing the article!! **RESULTS** are what it's all about.

Tim
.
Make sure your customers never lose your information,
with a Digital Business Card.
TheDean
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Quote:
TIM ZAGER - "**RESULTS** are what it's all about.


See... an entire thread perfectly encapsulated in 6 words!

NICE!

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Rev Dean Hankey
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success!
"Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…"

(*Marketing Doctor) Smile
The Village Idiots
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Clarify please. Is a "brand" what I condsider a "logo?" If so then I think they are effective for giving a profesional look to my PR materials. From my website to my busines cards, I want everything to look the same. Font or whatever.

Now I didn't spend a lot of money on this. Just thought into continuity.

Will
p.s. thanks for the interesting and dramatic discusion. Smile
Some are born idiots.

Some are made idiots.

Some have idiocy thrust upon them.
TheDean
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YES, your logo is PART of the "branding" process as are quite a few things you do inside of your total marketing, promotions and sales outreach.

The quality of your entire marketing, promotional, advertising, persuasion, influence and sales PLAN 'could' have an effect on how people 'perceive' you... THAT is branding in this context.

- How you dress can help to add to the brand "process"
- Your logo will effect the branding "process"
- The quality of your printing...
- The lay-outs...
- Our 'spelling and grammar in our outreach
- Your facial hair, even how you walk... look at Charlie Chaplin.
- Your SHOW itself will ultimately have impact on this part (branding) of the entire marketing process... see?

Here is what the Dictionary says about BRAND:
----------------------------------------
brand (brand) n 1) A trademark or label
2) A make; kind 3) A mark burned on the
hide of an animal. 4) A mark of disgrace;
stigma - v 1) to make with a brand 2) to
stigmatize.
----------------------------------------

Like the definition says... to extrapolate,

It's a particular WAY you do things...

- Our live performances have been said that it's our own particular "trademark" way of doing things.

Do we have a 'trademark" on HOW we perform?

NO.

Can others duplicate exactly how we do it... Nope. THAT is all part of what is referred to BRANDING.

And "Branding" is as was stated earlier... part of the entire marketing, advertising, influence & sales process.

YES, as I've always maintained... it "IS" important to support a good brand image, but on the whole, you "brand" will not get you more gigs as effectively as other forms of "effective" marketing will. See?

YES, pay attention to ALL the details of your over-al effective marketing and outreach plan and program! ...and branding, being part of that plan and program, just like "advertising" is... but it's NOT the ONLY or even the most "EFFECTIVE" thing we do.

Make sense?

Anyone else?

I remain at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano
<><

"THINK and Grow Rich!"
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success!
"Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…"

(*Marketing Doctor) Smile
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