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aussiemagic Special user 937 Posts |
I know that this topic has been done to death but watching the interview with Max Maven on Reel Magic got me thinking about it again.
The argument seems to be that if you use cards people will think you are doing magic tricks. For those that think it is ok to use cards in a mentalism performance, they argue that the people will associate gambling with cards more so than magic. I think a lot of people fail to acknowledge that the cultural background of your audience will play a large part in the associations they make when it comes to playing cards. I live in Japan and for the most part people are unfamiliar with gambling with playing cards. Therefore, the majority of people will associate playing cards with magic. I am sure Max Maven, who has been to Japan many times, would acknowledge this. You would be hard pressed to find someone in Japan who thinks "Texas Holdem" when they see playing cards. I am not sure I agree with Max Maven's juggling analogy either. Juggling is a skill that people know exists and it is a skill many people have. The ability to interpret a persons body language or pick up on their thoughts is a skill that may or may not exist in the minds of the audience. That is what makes mentalism entertaining, in my opinion anyway. It is magic that your audience is being convinced is real. If a spectator believes in the ability to read minds they will still be impressed because they have probably never experienced it before. It is a unique skill in which you may desire but imagine that you would never be able to obtain. Juggling on the other hand is very common. Maybe I misunderstood what Max was saying. I would be interested in learning more about Teller's thoughts on this. Has Teller published anything on this? I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this. Thanks AM
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
I say: GO FOR IT! There are lots of GREAT demonstrations performed with cards. I especially like this one I purchased the other day that demonstrats Joint Attention. Cool unique angle.
I believe as long as you've got a GOOD rap about the effect the specs will be taken in no matter what props you use. Having said that ... I do rarley if ever use cards in my stage show. Usually walk-around or those few occassions when you have to show someone something. j |
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David Alexander Special user 623 Posts |
Many of the best mentalists in the world use cards effectively in their work. That's good enough for me.
One of their keys to success is that they don't handle cards like magicians. |
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ParaLabs - Thomas Special user 913 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-04-23 10:08, David Alexander wrote: Not for me. Maybe there are good reasons for the use of playing cards - but I don't know them. That may be a lack of knowledge, ... But others doing something or doing it not is never a reason in the root of the matter for me. It's just a preference of others. No more, no less. From my point of view the common justifing of playing cards in mentalism comes not from a really logical stand. It comes not from the point that it would make sense because of the object "playing cards" itself. I guess most of the time playing cards are used because many mentalists were magicians before. And/Or because they know so much moves and trickery with playing cards that they can achieve so many wonderful effects. This is a good reason of course. But in this case you have to be honest and say it like it is and don't try to justify it as "logical" in the root of the matter. There are exceptions of course in routines with a special plot (demonstrating your psychic abilities as an advatage in poker for example) when the use of playing cards is absolutely indispensable. But most of the time - my impressions - justifying playing cards in mentalism is like putting lipstick on the pig. Best Th. |
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
Whether or not to use cards is clearly a matter of individual taste and preference; however, as has been noted by David and many others in this and the plethora of other threads on the subject of cards in mentalism that are a recurring theme on this and other forums, many -- if not most -- of the top mentalists in history have used playing cards to great effect in their performances. IMO the appropriateness of doing so depends on several factors; e.g., whether the performance is one-on-one, close-up or on stage or platform as well as the effect itself and the context in which it is presented. In my own case my stage/platform mindreading show includes one routine with playing cards.
I introduce the routine by explaining that "Although what I am about to attempt uses a deck of cards it is NOT a card trick. I use a deck of cards because it provides an assortment of 52 universally recognized symbols that differ from one another in color, shape and value. That is why playing cards were often used in early experiments in parapsychology. If I were to ask you all to think of a dog, you each might picture a different breed of dog in your mind's eye. But if I were to ask you to think of, say, the 6 of diamonds, everyone gets exactly the same mental image . . . and that is important and is why cards are used in this demonstration." That introduction addresses the issue of "card tricks" and provides a rationale explaining why the demonstration that follows is not one. It also eliminates any connotation of gambling. I will not go into detail about the routine itself other than to say that it involves a normal deck of cards which is fairly shuffled by an audience member, then placed face down in a common brown paper lunch or sandwich bag and passed to three other audience members each of whom reaches into the bag and removes a card which they look at and place in their pocket without revealing its identity. The bag is then given to a fifth spectator who removes the cards from the bag, shuffles them again and replaces them back in the bag face-down and hands the bag to me. I place the bag on my extended palm and reaching into the bag remove cards one at a time until the spectator tells me to stop at which time I hand him the bag and have him remove the card on top of the face-down deck. That is the ONLY time I handle either the bag or the cards. The four people who are now holding cards are asked to stand and concentrate on the cards they are holding. One by one I reveal the identity of their cards. To date, in hundreds of performances no one has ever described that demonstration as a "card trick."
Dick Christian
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
I think it depends upon how you handle the cards and what you use them for. If you come out doing some fans and springing the cards from hand-to-hand, no matter what you do, it's a card trick. If you dump them in a bag or wrap them with rubber bands and toss them to the audience so that people can randomly select one of 52 well-known possibilities, (or use them in some other unusual way) it's mentalism.
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
One of the strongest bits I do is the second one in my close up set and it uses cards. I know I have them when they start looking around for a mirror or a camera because they can't figure out how I know what I know.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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KBLV Regular user Las Vegas 188 Posts |
Cards do NOT belong in a mentalism show..the way I used them last night in mine. Sheesh.
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Amirá Inner circle MentalismCenter.com 5131 Posts |
I use cards.
Cards are images, symbols, color, numbers. Why Mr Osterlind uses cards in his professional act? Why Mr Annemann was crazy for cards? Why Mr. Dunninger perform mental mysteries with playing cards? Why Kreskin still uses the wonderfull "Calling Card" effect? why Pablo Amirá uses cards in his last show ? ;D If you are good performer, you can change stereotypes
Pablo
Performer and Author Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism www.mentalismcenter.com Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers www.arkanosophy.com |
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Rick Maue V.I.P. Pittsburgh, PA 586 Posts |
Greetings,
To be honest, I have found that the vast majority of people that loudly pontificate that mentalists should never use playing cards (or pontificate on any other topic, for that matter) are often not making much money. Go figure... Remember, the items and the effects that we use are merely the seasoning...the performer is the meal. Forget rules and be brutally honest with yourself. Just concentrate on getting experience in front of as many real people as possible, and learn...both good and bad...from every performance. And then, allow what you learn in the real world to shape your performance character, your material, your props, your show, etc... Keep the change, Rick |
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burst Veteran user Memphis, TN 308 Posts |
Context should be created and defined by the performer, not by preconceived notions the audience may or may not have.
If Hitchcock can garner suspension of disbelief with The Birds, I should be able to create a convincing mind reading act using cards. . . . Rick said it quite well. best, burst |
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Mick Ayres Special user Hilton Head Island 998 Posts |
I have never once felt the need to 'justify' the use of playing cards in my mentalism experiments. I chose them solely because cards are familiar household props with easily recognized symbols, period.
It was a logical decision, not a justified one. Warm regards, Mick
THE FIVE OBLIGATIONS OF CONJURING: Study. Practice. Script. Rehearse. Perform. Drop one and you're done.
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
It's about doing what you want and having a great time doing it.
Any other reason is just not worth it. Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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David Alexander Special user 623 Posts |
A number of years ago I was having dinner with Ron Siegel, one of the world’s leading psychopharmacologists. We'd met through mutual friends. Knowing I was a magician he commented on how he’d accompanied a Scandinavian film crew who’d flown all the way to the US to film a “psychic” whose name I’ve forgotten. Seems the psychic had a big rep and was claiming he was real. Interested, Ron had tagged along. (This was at a time that Thelma Moss had her lab at UCLA.)
Ron told me about one of the “tests” the psychic presented to prove he had "powers." A few seconds into his description I realized he was talking about Paul Curry’s “Out of this World.” Other than Ron (who was somewhat cynical) no one present took what the guy was doing as a “card trick.” It was a good illustration for the power of context and presentation and a lesson I've long remembered. |
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
Trilby
Yep. If anything, mentalist SHOULD use playing cards for that exact reason. Learning how to do readings with a pack of cards can be the closest thing to real psychic entertainment.
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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p_n_g Loyal user 297 Posts |
If you believe that cards doesn't belong to a mentalism show, its fine, just don't use it - how could you do a convincing and entertaining show, if you don't believe in what you are doing?
I think its all about the performer, not about the mentalism in general. Just my opinion about this... Norbert |
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Dick Christian Inner circle Northern Virginia (Metro DC) 2619 Posts |
As the various posts to this thread reveal, it is all about context and the decision to use or or eschew them is entirely up to the performer. There is no "right" or "wrong" opinion and IMO attempts to establish hard and fast "rules" regarding such matters are a waste of time.
Dick Christian
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Failed Magician Inner circle Still working on the DL even after made 2100 Posts |
Agree with Dick, it's like using transportation from one point to another. You are freely to choose which medium you want to use.
Mentalism act (no matter what mediums we're using) is the destination. The destination/final goal is: 1. To show others that we -somehow- possess some physic powers that is not obtained by other people. 2. To gain audience's amazement. I think those two (perhaps more) points are the reasons why we perform mentalism to our audience. As for me, a hobbyist, I still enjoy the act as a spectator even some part of my soul is a performer. So it won't matter if the mentalist uses a deck of cards, tarot cards, whiteboard, notepad, etc. Just my 2 cents.
Magic comes through perception. -HS
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david12345 Special user 714 Posts |
Universally recognized, therefore easy for audience to recall effects and tell others what they experienced. As has been mentioned how you handle a deck is what will determine to an audience what you are doing with the cards.
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Oyama Inner circle Portland, OR. 1054 Posts |
Do you have "Emergency Psychic Routine" by Loren Tindall?
If not...pick it up! You can get it from Mevproshop.com. It comes free with "Emergency Mental Routine" by Gene Nielson. Anyway, it is a GREAT example of using playing cards AND doing readings from the stage with the cards. Changed my perspective on the art. I would suggest anyone who uses cards in mentalism and is concerned cards will make people think "magician", to pick this up. Seriously! It really did change my thought process. Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
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