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PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
Following the topic Eshla posted and given the suggestion of being yourself and do not care about other mentalists I wonder:
do we really have to listen people like Riggs;Arce;Cavalli... and others who have real world experience and create their own stuff or we really don't need their advice and just be ourselves? And if the answer is no: I only contend why to ask them in the first place? |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
Café = an arena of ideas ... take some and leave some.
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Sensio Special user I promise I won't exceed 641 Posts |
Osterlind, Banachek and many other reputable people that breath and live professional mentalism are members of the Café.
This isn't chance.. |
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PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
Cesta is not that the core f the issue ??:
I like the cafè but I find it has an inherent leveling power: potentially dangerous I know things are changed but old school taught us that if a cassidy gave us some suggestions on one thing we listened to him: if one osterlind suggested us that a blindfold method is better than another for this and that reasons we listened and were thankful: now the potential problem of the arena you speak is exactly that: I don't want to say that even someone logging iin as “nick75” can have some great insight on one thing: you don't need to be max maven to have a good idea: far from me saying that common sense [which is a misnomer since seem not to be so common] would tell you there is a difference from someone who maybe even a teenager with no experience and someone like entity which ha slot of experience under his belt and grew up sharing ideas with some of the top card men or a post from Arce from a post of “nick75” and so on even more than that: you may even dislike maven answer to you but unless youve tried you don’t know better and certainly some pros here stopped posting because they were attacked to no end yes some of them only posted here to pimp their next product otherwise keeping low key: yes as soon as they post any new or reinvented effects their attack dogs [as davit sicseek dubbed them] come here to tell you how this was the best effect they ever saw: but again with a grain of salt you always know who they are and your decision to buy said effect or not should not be based on their false praise also true that if we need to be honest a balance is kept because of a lot of other people who just do the opposite and attack any performer they don't like just because they can: behind their safety screen I and others have been all “guilty” of that at least once but I contend that in the end we still should know there is a different weight if a suggestion is given out by cavalli by arce by osterlind or by “card and coin master” otherwise don’t ask: you know your answer is better than anything they can suggest you: don’t ask: |
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parmenion Inner circle Switzerland/Zürich 3988 Posts |
Eshla is right, HE doesn't needs the Café, he should follow his advice and not come here
“I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about.”
<BR>Oscar Wilde experimentaliste <br> <BR>Artist pickpocket Professional <BR> <BR>Looking for the best book test in French? send me a PM! |
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kinesis Inner circle Scotland, surrounded by 2708 Posts |
Everyone has something to gain from this forum. You post a question and get replies from lots of different people with a wide range of experience. Ultimately the best advice (depending on the question of course) will, more often than not, come from those of us that actually go out there and perform for the REAL, PAYING, PUBLIC on a very regular basis. The advice given isn't just out of the pages of a book it's from experience. You can't buy that. And (unless it refers to things like performance style etc.)if you're going to disagree with the real workers you'd better have a darn'd good agrument against it.
I've learned a lot from The Café over the years and am grateful to way too many people for their advice. Derek |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 10:04, kinesis wrote: Derek, But as you know, sadly, this is hardly the rule applied by most here... I know I would listen to Bob Cassidy or to Greg Arce (or any other creator) rather than some Nick75... But I'm biased and I know I am. For other people I would suggest never listen to the pros, more than that... Don't even ask them. Probably their answer won't be what you expected it to be, so avoid planning for delusion!
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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Eshla Inner circle 1239 Posts |
My belief is that no Mentalist is perfect.
I find Mentalists like Osterlind, Banachek, Arce, Riggs and many others to be very useful. If John Riggs wasn't so good at making i** pads, we all would be worse off. I get advice or products from them on a weekly basis and most of the time I'm very happy with what I get. But no one is perfect; the great mentalists have made some items that are gold dust, and some which are average, and some which are laughable. Personally I view things such as using the Stainless Steel Blindfold on its own as not good enough, as ever since I was a child I have noticed how if I look down the nose of my glasses, everything goes blurry. For me, the SSB alone (and that's an example) would never be enough infront of reporters and sceptics. I have however have seen John Archers blindfold used half a dozen times, and I still cannot figure out the method. So its like a balancing act... while Osterlind's SSB I think has a few holes in it (pun intended), I still respect Osterlind as a great Mentalist because I think his watch routine is genius, aswell as many other things. His metal bending routine is perhaps the best in the world. Just my two cents, don't hate me for them Tom xx
I come from the future to culture you poor sods with fire.
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aussiemagic Special user 937 Posts |
The problem is that a lot of creators aren't necessarily performers out there doing it! This is why most of the stuff on the market is junk!
There are members here that are really out there doing it, like Banachek, John Archer, Christopher Carter and Nimrod Harel. But, they rarely post. Most of the people that post here are only "known" because of the Café! And, they are the ones that are giving advice and selling ebooks! I want to listen to the people that are out there doing it but unfortunately I see very little real world advice on here.
How to become a professional magician:
Click here |
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
Basically if you respect someone you listen to them. Most respect the pros so they listen to them. Even if you say you don't publicly, you probably do really take their advice to varying degrees, because it's so *** right.
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yachanin Inner circle Cleveland, OH 2105 Posts |
Like many things in life, those with experience may be able to save you a great deal of time and effort or allow you to avoid many mistakes. As a very simple example, I remember an airline stewardess (yes, it was that long ago) showing me how to pack a suitcase so that your clothes would not get wrinkled. I could have tried a number of different methods on my own until I figured it out or stumbled upon the answer, but I was able to avoid many "wrinkled" trips because of her experience.
There are also times, however, when individuals should "follow their own path" despite the advice or wisdom of more experienced people. New ideas and innovations are often born from throwing out the "tried-and-true." The hard part is learning when to take the advice or not, but I believe you should at least consider what those with experience have to offer. Regards, Steve
"Impossible? Your audience will think so..." TM
Thought Association Card Triangulation Word Search Detective Christmas Eve Sights - Start A Family Tradition |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 10:13, aussiemagic wrote: But only because you are still thinking about Bank Night being something that sucks! Of course no real world performer (Bob Cassidy we all know does not perform!) told you Bank Night can be STRONG!
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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ParaLabs - Thomas Special user 913 Posts |
There is the rank "New User" printed below my nick.
So I've not a fractional part of the MC-related experience compared to those of you with hundreds or thousands of posts. Nonetheless it isn’t difficult to identify posts that are worth to be reflected and those that are not. The criterion to assess this isn't the name of the user or his number of posts. It’s not about believe in anyone at all. It’s about convincing statements. Apart from some valuable remarks here and there this isn’t the place for profound discussions anyway I guess. If you are literate enough to judge a post regarding it's substantial content you can even read between the lines (as “celebrity“ would say ); if you are not … you have to learn the hard way sometimes. But even this is a valuable lesson you shouldn't pay little heed to. |
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Magical Dimensions Inner circle 5001 Posts |
There are those that can't be taught because they already know everything.
Do we need to listen from those who have MORE experienced? I would say yes, because having an OPEN mind will speed you along the road of success if that is your aim and goal. If a person were always GIVING their opinion WITHOUT any real world experience then they are a fool, especially when their ideas are obviously incorrect to anyone with some knowledge of performing. It took me YEARS to get to the level that I am now (in magic) because I AM one of those old guys who had to rely on myself. I didn't have anyone to talk to for the first 6 to 8 years. So if I had the chance to listen to some advice from someone who is at a higher level than me then it is greatly welcome. I guess that the internet and YouTube generation never read books because it has been written numerous times that if you want to better yourself then hang out with people who are a greater success than you are. If you always ran around with the same group who are just like you then you will always stay at the same level that you are now. To better yourself you would need to make friends with those who are at a higher echelon than you. Seems like common sense if you just think about it. So the question of this thread, ‘Do we really need to listen from the most experienced’ seems (to me) one of not realizing the method of shadowing someone who is BETTER than you. By listening to a more experience person is how we LEARN. I used to be an industrial electrician and worked with high and low voltage. One slip up or mistake could hurt or terminate you. Do you think that I would open up a switch gear box with all those really THICK cables and terminals and work on it without FIRST learning from MORE experience people with the knowledge of doing the job? Why is learning mentalism different in the learning process? So the answer for me is YES, I look forward to talking and listening to others who may be at a higher level than me. It is after learning the ground work and applying ourselves that we can start making good decisions in what we feel fits our persona. By listening to those who have walked the boards can only amplify our knowledge. Best Ray |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts |
Depends on the advice that the most experienced provide! As with most questions, the answer to this one is...it depends!
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Listen to all - and learn from all - as one progresses, one will be able to tell the sh+t from shinola.
Experience is great - but also over time, people get into patterns and ways of thinking that can hinder new thoughts. Certain creators and performers, like Riggs IMHO resist that by constantly delving into related and complete outside fields to keep up with the times and be innovative. There are those with a lot of experience who have clearly run out of ideas and are now repackaging or lifting material from the past - just as much as some young ones - but seem to get away with it due to their reps. However, their reps eventually suffer. Young creators may stumble on things others have previously created - but because of the newness and approach, may actually have a new wrinkle. Some love the art so much they dive in... The key is realizing EVERYONE has something to offer and share - its the process and methods of how to collaborate that is important. Y'know the line about the greatest swordsman doesn't fear the second greatest - the novice is the one to fear... There are a lot of armchair types - but they may be full of interesting references for people to look up. There may be a lot of non-creditors who release material - but it may be a function of youth and bravado - who need mentorship versus shotguns. Then there are talented types who use their abilities to con others - everyone, including fellow mystery performers. And do not forget you can learn a lot from those who do things abyssmally - the antimentors. Learn and Perform constantly. Key thing is - one thing that can't truly be learned from others or stolen is yourself. Cheesey, perhaps - but true.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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ryesteve Regular user 196 Posts |
Of course you should listen to them. Just don't automatically assume that they're always going to be right.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
There is a clear difference between listening to advice and shelling out for effects.
You can take or leave advice but quite often you are left with an effect that doesn't suit you. On here you rarely get a clear unbiased opinion on most effects. There is a herd instinct and over enthusiastic group compliance dynamic going on. There is also the assumption that because someone is a well known pro that everything they release is great. Its not - some of it is crap. However anyone who points it out is crucified.... You do not have to like everything that is put out. While advice might be free effects are often overpriced and misrepresented in the marketing. With a herd of sheep all Bahhhhhhhhing praise that's way over the top. At least there is plenty of greenery for them to munch on. However it is silly to argue with anyone that some effect is weak or strong...I hate spoon bending therefore I could never carry it off. But others can make a living from doing it. |
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
Quote:
Do we really need to listen from the most experienced It would probably be a good idea at least quite a lot of the time. Generally people with more experience have greater knowledge, can provide greater understanding and if they have something to say on a matter it's worth at least listening to what they say. Note that I say 'listening to what they say' not 'accepting what they say'. Mere experience, or the perception of experience on the pages of this forum and others doesn't count for a great deal for me personally. Look at all the advice, take what you judge to be good, overlook what you judge to be bad. If you are out there testing and performing you'll soon start to realise which is which. There are people on here who by all accounts are good, experienced, full time performers. I've never seen them perform and there is a surprising lack of information about them online. I am almost certain that there are people on here that do perform, but give off the impression that they perform a lot more than they actually do. One only has to turn up to a few conventions or even just magic clubs, show oneself to be a competent (not even good) performer and such an illusion becomes easy to create. There are some experienced people that have posted utter nonsense on these pages. I've seen some experienced people doing some truly horrible pieces of mentalism - I don't know about you guys, but I don't intend to pay extra attention to someone who is experienced in sub-par, generic mentalism. I don't care how many days a week they are getting booked. Unless of course they are posting about marketing... It also goes the other way, I know of some mentlaists that are great performers but can't communicate their ideas and approaches in a way that is of much value to anyone else. Quote:
yes some of them only posted here to pimp their next product otherwise keeping low key: yes as soon as they post any new or reinvented effects their attack dogs [as davit sicseek dubbed them] come here to tell you how this was the best effect they ever saw: but again with a grain of salt you always know who they are and your decision to buy said effect or not should not be based on their false praise Don't forget that they also raise their heads to accept the praise from their attack dogs and to defend any criticism of themselves using their 'experience' and 'reputation' as their knock out blows. The amusing thing is that you often see "Thanks so much Mr Creator for gracing us with your presense... We're so lucky to have you posting on these pages.. Can we go out for dinner, a dance, then a movie (bring a change of clothes just incase it's all groovy)?" All mentalists can improve their performances, all medium/big creators have published some sub-par material - only some can be humble, only some can accept or even engage with criticsm. Quote:
you know your answer is better than anything they can suggest you: don’t ask: I don't think it's normally quite like this. I think what you're talking about can be better explained as "I strongly believe X to be the case, but can anyone with experience convince me that I should rethink my position". Although perhaps a bit annoying and repetitive for the forum as a whole, this is a healthy way to develop as an individual performer.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-05-24 09:58, PsiDroid wrote: I thougt my answer was productive. |
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