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Phil J.
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A gunman has killed 12 people an injured a further 25 during a shooting rampage in Cumbria http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10219655.stm the gunman later killed himself.
You were born original... Don't die a copy Smile
Ray Tupper.
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After the recent school bus crash,(Which killed 3)to have a nutcase run around killing randomly must surely knock you sideways.
Cumbria is a beautiful part of the world,with lovely people.To have this horror happen there,must be soul destroying.
12 dead plus the gunman,25 injured,5 seriously,and 3 critical.
A sad state of affairs!
Ray.
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C*nt!
Pakar Ilusi
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RIP to the Victims.

Really sad. Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Carrie Sue
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Yes, very sad that defensive weapons are banned, or at least heavily restricted.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/1......-europe/

Carrie
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Destiny
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Defensive?

Can they also be sad, lonely or loving?

In your search for productive employment maybe you should add Spin Doctor to your list of prospective careers.

Care to compare murder rates in countries where guns are not normally available to the generaL public?
Payne
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 10:57, Destiny wrote:

Care to compare murder rates in countries where guns are not normally available to the generaL public?



Or cite instances where a gun was used to prevent or stop a rampage.

We had four police officers shot down in a coffee shop a few months back. A guy just walked in and killed them as they sat at a table. Each officer was fully armed and trained. Yet the fact that they all had guns didn't help them to survive or stop the shooter.
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stoneunhinged
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Payne, that's a horrible story.

And pertinent in every way.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 11:25, Payne wrote:
Or cite instances where a gun was used to prevent or stop a rampage.

Michael Millen, a convicted felon (armed robbery) was shot and killed as he tried to rob a pawn shop in Chicago last week (June 8). Police recovered a revolver believed to have been Millen's at the scene.

On June 3rd, a 27 year-old man shot and wounded another convicted felon in the area as he broke into a house while fleeing the police.

On May 26th, a Korean War veteran shot a convicted felon who broke into his home in East Garfield Park.

In Florida in March of this year, Dave Henry was jumped and pistol-whipped by two armed robbers outside his home, where his wife and child were sleeping. Henry has a concealed carry permit; he drew his weapon, killed one of the robbers and chased off the other, surviving the attack.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Sorry; I misread. You got me - those didn't stop rampages. They just stopped violent felonies. But I think that being able to protect oneself and one's family from armed felons is about as good a reason as stopping a rampage.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Destiny
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In Australia our felons are rarely armed, but I understand that in other places Pandora's box is well and truly opened, and won't be shut.

Sometimes we have good reason to be grateful for our isolation.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 12:04, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Sorry; I misread. You got me - those didn't stop rampages. They just stopped violent felonies. But I think that being able to protect oneself and one's family from armed felons is about as good a reason as stopping a rampage.

Lobo, your argument is disingenuous. The only reason I should need firearms to defend my family from armed felons is that most felons in the US are likely to be armed, which raises deeper questions regarding the prudence of US gun laws. Sure, I might get murdered tonight with a gun by someone breaking into my house to steal my banjo, but the odds are much less than they would be in the States.

Few people in Germany crave banjos.
Magnus Eisengrim
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From http://www.nationmaster.com , here are the firearm homicide rates per 1,000 people by country.


Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
# 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
# 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
# 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
# 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
# 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
# 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
# 15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
# 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
# 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
# 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
# 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
# 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
# 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
# 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
# 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
# 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
# 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
# 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
# 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
# 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
# 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
kcg5
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 10:40, Carrie Sue wrote:
Yes, very sad that defensive weapons are banned, or at least heavily restricted.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/1......-europe/

Carrie



I am no longer surprised by your idiotic statements carrie. Your article, which fox would call journalism.., maintains that these shootings as just as common in countries where guns are outlawed. School shootings..... OK, lets think about this-I know its hard. Guns arent in schools anyway, last I checked (except by police, and that is many schools)-so for your point of view to make sense the teachers should have been packing.. Is your point that more guns are safer? Does that even make sense to anyone? Its to bad that teachers, or even the kids werent packing, cause they would surely have shot the guy, no problem.

I love how the fox trash article ends with "... but with a common factor: the attacks take place where civilians are banned from carrying guns." the piece (of ****) was written like a murder mystery, where at the end we get a surprise! yip-ee!!

Join up with sara palin.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 12:54, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 12:04, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Sorry; I misread. You got me - those didn't stop rampages. They just stopped violent felonies. But I think that being able to protect oneself and one's family from armed felons is about as good a reason as stopping a rampage.


Lobo, your argument is disingenuous. The only reason I should need firearms to defend my family from armed felons is that most felons in the US are likely to be armed, which raises deeper questions regarding the prudence of US gun laws. Sure, I might get murdered tonight with a gun by someone breaking into my house to steal my banjo, but the odds are much less than they would be in the States.

Few people in Germany crave banjos.


Stone -

Not sure why you think it's disingenuous. But first, I wasn't making an argument; Payne asked for examples of defensive gun use, and I provided a few.

But as for the other point, I'm curious as to what questions you think your fact pattern raises, and what you think the answers are. I agree that the degree to which you "need" to be armed is related on the degree to which your assailant may be armed (though, if my house were broken into by a couple of guys who "only" had knives, I'd still rather have a gun). However, how would you connect that fact to gun laws?
People who don't balk at committing murder, rape, and armed robbery aren't likely to be dissuaded by laws banning the possession of firearms. So, if you lived here, and we had strong anti-possession laws, the ones they'd affect would be the law-abiding citizens. The guys stealing your banjo would still be armed; as you point out, in such a case, you might need to be, also.
We can't keep people from entering this country illegally by the bazillions; guns are a lot smaller than people. Availability of guns to criminals in the United States is a product of many things, the least of which is the Second Amendment - their guns aren't generally bought through legal channels, anyway. But we have a country with a lot of money (and thus a lot of profit motive in illegal trades with practitioners who liked to be armed, primarily narcotics traffic), and large, porous borders. Demographically, geographically, and economically, it'd be awfully tough to keep guns out of the hands of our criminals, irrespective of any laws regulating possession, sale, and transport. It seems reasonable, to me, to offer our law abiding citizens the same opportunity.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Lobo, your post was not disingenuous. I missed your post quoting Payne's, and thus missed your point . My bad. Sorry.
kcg5
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Lets talk about what just exactly "arms" are.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Pakar Ilusi
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Those who fight Monsters should be careful not to become Monsters themselves.

Armed or not.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 13:51, LobowolfXXX wrote:
(though, if my house were broken into by a couple of guys who "only" had knives, I'd still rather have a gun).


Not to be picky but the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight is a bit skewed. Technically, a knife or any edge weapon could be the better weapon of choice in a gun vs knife confrontation.

Experts in the art of shooting, an not just someone who scores in the upper 97% on a qualification range, have proven that when confronted with an assailant with a knife, it takes approximately 15 feet of reactionary distance for an expert to draw his side arm and get a shot off should that person armed with the edge weapon attack.

Should that person with the edged weapon be a person accustomed to using an edge weapon, i.e. someone from a knife culture like Mexico, South or Central America or the Far East then the dude with the gun needs 21 feet of reactionary time to clear leather and get the shot off.

Should the guy with the gun aleady have his gun drawn and the assailant attacks, the gunman needs 18-20 feet of reactionary feet to raise and fire.

If the person is not an expert with a gun the reactionary time is much greater. This, along with the fact that body armor is not designed to stop an edge weapon, is why law enforcement officers who are confronted with an assailant with an edged weapon will often shoot to kill after one quick command to drop the knife. The optimum 21 feet is not a lot of distance as it can be covered in a second or less depending on the assailant. If confronted with an assailant armed with an edged weapon, then the person with the gun needs to have the decisive advantage in order to get the drop. Also an edged weapon can be anything that can cut, slice or puncture. I once worked a homicide where a person was stabbed multiple times in the abdomen, neck and groin with a #2 pencil.

Peace and Godspeed
Peace

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Carrie Sue
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Anyone who wants examples of firearms being used defensively only needs to pick up a copy of any NRA magazine, wherein they reprint local news articles about regular people protecting themselves, their loved ones or their property with their own guns.

Look for the column called "The Armed Citizen."

Statistically, firearms are used more than two million times a year to prevent crimes of all sorts. Often the appearance of a defensive weapon keeps the crime from happening in the first place, and the criminal either runs away or gets his just desserts.

Freedom on the issue of self defense was so important to the Founders that they enshrined it in the 2nd Amendment. "The right of the people to keep AND bear arms shall not be infringed (emphasis mine)."

Carrie
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ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
Kevin Ridgeway
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 16:11, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Those who fight Monsters should be careful not to become Monsters themselves.

Armed or not.


Indeed...that's called having rights. But rights come with responsibilities.


Kevin
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