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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 00:53, MagicSanta wrote:
As a well known liberal I will say that NRA leadership has said in years past that they felt that anyone should be able to purchase any weapon the military has.

Let us look at the CDC numbers from 2002 or that is what it says (you know us libs, we alter some things) and what I think.
In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the US:
17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
Santa: This tells me one thing...gun owners ain't real mentally stable, quit shooting yourselves! It's messy.

11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
Santa: Let's face it, some of 'em had it coming.

762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
Santa: Oops! I say that will make a good article every month, some of 'em have to be funny.

and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
Santa: There! Finally....that number is pretty low. Hmmm...seems that the need for a shooting for protection column is less needed than a shooting for accident.

Again remembering that I am such a hard corp liberal that I have an Al Gore tattoo made with organic ink, in fact I said no needles, I had 'em use bamboo shoots. The number you use for protection is skewed and don't make a lot of sense. I learned that most people who claimed to have went to Woodstock for the concert in 1969, you know, the real one, didn't go to the concert. There are more ex SEALs running around than there have ever been SEALs. And gun folks claim that they used guns to protect themselves even if they did not.

Sure if someone is attacking you then by all means use a gun if you have one and god bless you but the actual numbers of reported to police use of a gun for protection don't match up. Let's face it, virtually all violent crime is street crime and that means the use of a gun is out in public and would also mean it was concealed. Again, guns or yelling "get out of here ya liberals cuz I have a gun and will use it for other than suicide if need be!" doesn't really count now does it? Nor does the belief that if a gang doesn't beat down your door and rob you at gun point because they just 'know' you have a gun doesn't count either....except to those making claims they use guns for protection. The same can be said but from an opposite perspective for those who accidentally discharge a gun and didn't hit anyone. They are not likely to rat themselves out. So much for the numbers.

Hey, if you want to keep a gun in your house even with the knowledge that you are more likely to shoot yourself then go for it. Just practice a bit more, I mean in 1.5 supposed 'protection' events and you only shot 300 successfully? That is pretty bad.

In collecting some numbers I found a cute article about a cab driver who was in the NRA magazine column as protecting themself. Turns out she did shoot the robber and injured him, unloading her gun, a revolver. The robber then smacked her upside the head and took the gun, placed it to her neck, and pulled the trigger a number of times. Seems her shooting all her rounds is what saved her life because had there been a round in there she'd not have made the magazine.

Well, I'm off to drink tea and send out post cards made of hemp about global warming. Word.


Citing the number of suicides doesn't seem to prove much of a point either way. If someone has decided to take his or her own life, he or she will choose a means, and if one means is unavailable, another will be chosen. Well over 10,000 people commit suicide without guns; should we similarly question the mental stability of non-gun-owners? Or should we eliminate all guns from society, then when people start sticking their heads in ovens to commit suicide, should we question the mental stability of oven owners and bad them (the ovens, not the owners), too?

I'm not sure about your source; lethal self defense and defense of others IS homicide. Legal intervention, etc. - those are homicides. So I'd say you're right - some of them DO have it coming. If a police officer shoots and kills someone to prevent a crime, that's homicide. I'm curious as to why it's treated as a separate category.

762 accident shootings...well, I guess a 400,000-1 chance of being killed is the price you pay for a Second Amendment. The Constitution doesn't guarantee that anyone has a right to a car; if we want a safer, accident-free society, we could discuss the tens of thousands of people who die in the USA each year in auto accidents; the car death toll in a week approximates the gun death toll in a year.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-14 16:51, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 13:51, LobowolfXXX wrote:
(though, if my house were broken into by a couple of guys who "only" had knives, I'd still rather have a gun).


Not to be picky but the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight is a bit skewed. Technically, a knife or any edge weapon could be the better weapon of choice in a gun vs knife confrontation.

Experts in the art of shooting, an not just someone who scores in the upper 97% on a qualification range, have proven that when confronted with an assailant with a knife, it takes approximately 15 feet of reactionary distance for an expert to draw his side arm and get a shot off should that person armed with the edge weapon attack.

Should that person with the edged weapon be a person accustomed to using an edge weapon, i.e. someone from a knife culture like Mexico, South or Central America or the Far East then the dude with the gun needs 21 feet of reactionary time to clear leather and get the shot off.

Should the guy with the gun aleady have his gun drawn and the assailant attacks, the gunman needs 18-20 feet of reactionary feet to raise and fire.

If the person is not an expert with a gun the reactionary time is much greater. This, along with the fact that body armor is not designed to stop an edge weapon, is why law enforcement officers who are confronted with an assailant with an edged weapon will often shoot to kill after one quick command to drop the knife. The optimum 21 feet is not a lot of distance as it can be covered in a second or less depending on the assailant. If confronted with an assailant armed with an edged weapon, then the person with the gun needs to have the decisive advantage in order to get the drop. Also an edged weapon can be anything that can cut, slice or puncture. I once worked a homicide where a person was stabbed multiple times in the abdomen, neck and groin with a #2 pencil.

Peace and Godspeed


Thanks Dread...interesting and illuminating.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MagicSanta
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I just cut and pasted the data from the CDC, I didn't like it to be honest with you. It proves what they say, statics are like bikinis, what they reveal is interesting, what they conceal is vital.

My response was mostly due to my dislike of using skewed numbers, which they are. As for the suicides they really should be more considerate and, say, hang themselves. Less mess to clean up. I think they use the term homicide to indicate a death that was criminal while they put the accidental into its own catagory and then there are those they were not sure what the heck went on.

As I said, own guns if you like, doesn't bother me. Just cut it with the stupid numbers. One last thing Dread, I could not find a single event where someone threw knives at themselves in order to commit suicide so they are more sound it seems.
Destiny
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I believe the Port Arthur massacre here in Australia when Martin Bryant killed 35 people and injured another 21 is the worst single gunman rampage of the 20th century. At the time just about anyone could have a gun. After that the Australian government with bipartisan support, brought in strict regulation and did a buyback. As we were mostly not as enamoured of weapons as the citizens of the US, this was affordable. There were the odd crazies who buried guns in PVC pipes against the day we needed to protect ourselves against a crazed dictatorship, but again, very few Australians have such extreme fears.

Guns can now only be owned by people who have good reason to possess them, farmers, sportspersons, collectors etc. These people must be approved and checks are run to ensure they have good mental health and no criminal record. The weapons, when not in use, must be stored securely and there are substantial penalties if they are not. We never had a high murder rate to start with, but it's gone down. Also I have read suicides have declined. People who really want to kill themselves will - but some will think twice if there is some time intervention. A readily available gun means a very fast exit. Hanging, jumping off cliffs, running a tube from the exhaust pipe of the car into the car etc all require a deal of preparation and time to think.

I read yesterday of an 84 year old man in Sydney who lives opposite an iconic suicide spot at the entrance to Sydney Harbour - over the years government records show he has saved the lives of at least 160 would be jumpers. His secret method - he wanders over the road and asks them if they would like to come and have a cup of tea!
stoneunhinged
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Destiny, it sounds like the current gun regulation in Germany is similar to Germany's.

Everyone note that rampages occur regularly in Germany (though admittedly not as regularly as in the US), in spite of those regulations.

Regarding Dread's post: to murder a family a good knife or hatchet might be sufficient. But to go on a rampage in a school or a shopping mall a semi-automatic gun is probably more efficient, don't you think?
Carrie Sue
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Good point, Stone.

Criminals know where the defenseless people are, so that's where they go when they want to cause the most damage. You don't ever hear of a crazed gunman shooting up a gun show, or even a police station.

Regular people can be just as qualified to defend themselves and others as a police officer, and if a criminal doesn't know whether or not his targets might be armed, he will -- WILL -- think more than once about doing the dirty deed.

Period.

Carrie
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S2000magician
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 02:38, stoneunhinged wrote:
Destiny, it sounds like the current gun regulation in Germany is similar to Germany's.

I'm guessing that they're identical.

;)
stoneunhinged
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HA!

A tautology a day keeps the ego at bay.
MagicSanta
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San Jose California around 1998ish a drunk driving suspect took a gun off an officer in the police station and shot and killed him. There Carrie, you now have heard of a shooting in a police station. Doesn't have anything to do with the points made but still it has happened...
Destiny
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"Regular people can be just as qualified to defend themselves and others as a police officer, and if a criminal doesn't know whether or not his targets might be armed, he will -- WILL -- think more than once about doing the dirty deed."

Why then does Australia, where the criminals can know fairly certainly that we are not armed, have so many less murders and attempted murders per capita than the US? We should be at constant risk of attack by your reasoning.

We also cannot possess tasers or capsicum spray and their ilk. We have to worry about criminals breaking into our homes with water pistols and getting us all wet.

Unfortunately I doubt there is a solution for the US. It is obvious the opponents of any form of gun control are too powerful a lobby to be overcome - and there are so many weapons already in circulation it would take enormous time, effort and money to effect any effective level of control.

By the way, Carrie - do you get your insight into the criminal mind from some factual source - or are you relying on your own legendary powers of perception?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 11:56, Destiny wrote:
By the way, Carrie - do you get your insight into the criminal mind from some factual source - or are you relying on your own legendary powers of perception?


We can all be legends...let's play the hypothetical game. Say you're chosen profession is armed robbery, and you live on the border of two states. In one of those states, there are very permissive concealed carry laws, and 1 in 2 residents is armed. In the other, they have very strict gun laws, and nobody other than police officers owns a gun. You're going to work tonight. You don't want to be too close to home, so you're going to drive 50 miles deep into either state A or state B for your armed robbery. Seriously now...with a straight face...which way are you going?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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To the house where there are injured family members due to gun accidents?
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 01:28, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 16:51, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-14 13:51, LobowolfXXX wrote:
(though, if my house were broken into by a couple of guys who "only" had knives, I'd still rather have a gun).


Not to be picky but the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight is a bit skewed. Technically, a knife or any edge weapon could be the better weapon of choice in a gun vs knife confrontation.

Experts in the art of shooting, an not just someone who scores in the upper 97% on a qualification range, have proven that when confronted with an assailant with a knife, it takes approximately 15 feet of reactionary distance for an expert to draw his side arm and get a shot off should that person armed with the edge weapon attack.

Should that person with the edged weapon be a person accustomed to using an edge weapon, i.e. someone from a knife culture like Mexico, South or Central America or the Far East then the dude with the gun needs 21 feet of reactionary time to clear leather and get the shot off.

Should the guy with the gun aleady have his gun drawn and the assailant attacks, the gunman needs 18-20 feet of reactionary feet to raise and fire.

If the person is not an expert with a gun the reactionary time is much greater. This, along with the fact that body armor is not designed to stop an edge weapon, is why law enforcement officers who are confronted with an assailant with an edged weapon will often shoot to kill after one quick command to drop the knife. The optimum 21 feet is not a lot of distance as it can be covered in a second or less depending on the assailant. If confronted with an assailant armed with an edged weapon, then the person with the gun needs to have the decisive advantage in order to get the drop. Also an edged weapon can be anything that can cut, slice or puncture. I once worked a homicide where a person was stabbed multiple times in the abdomen, neck and groin with a #2 pencil.

Peace and Godspeed


Thanks Dread...interesting and illuminating.


Planning, Lobo. It's in the planning. Know your home like the back of your hand. Every home pretty much has a choke point, ie top of the stairs, end of a hall. That's where you keep the gun. Close quarter combat... screw the pistol... grab the Mossberg 500, 12 gauge, 18" barrel, modified choke, double 00 buck. Lock n load brother.

Peace and Godspeed.
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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MagicSanta
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They don't listen to us libs Landmark. Seems per the police most people who use guns for protection do so with people they knew.
Dreadnought
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Yup Stone. Guns are more efficient. However, the difference between someone who really knows what to do with one vs. someone who just points and shoots is astronomical.

Peace and Godspeed
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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The shotgun doesn't fit under my pillow.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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As for personal protection, the best protection is not placing oneself in the position where having to use a gun is necessary. It's called staying alert. Be careful of your surroundings, keep proper distance between you and the car in front of you. Do not go jogging or walking with the IPOD headphones rammed into your ear (I'm guilty of that one at times). Have the exterior doors on your house open out rather than in and have sufficient lighting outside your home.

Peace and Godspeed
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:24, Dreadnought wrote:
Be careful of your surroundings, keep proper distance between you and the car in front of you.




And when the guy in the next lane cuts you off, don't give him the finger; take a deep breath or two.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dreadnought
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:24, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The shotgun doesn't fit under my pillow.


Then you need a bullpup version Smile
Peace

"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."

Scott

Would you do anything for the person you love?
MagicSanta
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Here is an opening to a news article I found today which explains why gun control may be good in Germany:

BERLIN (Reuters) – A German student created a major traffic jam in Bavaria after making a rude gesture at a group of Hell's Angels motorcycle gang members, hurling a puppy at them and then escaping on a stolen bulldozer.
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