Having just received the DVD, I am also shocked. Now what to do- can anyone shed more light on this??

Absolutely -- go buy some lemons, eggs, and walnuts. Practice, practice, practice, and then perform.

Glad I could help.

BTW, years ago when I was just getting back into magic, I started performing Card to Walnut. Didn't read about it anywhere. I just thought it would be a fun place to find a card, and it worked out great.

Brian

What to do about what???

...and why are you shocked?

Shed more light on what?

People "réinventing" old tricks on DVD seems to be a common thing nowadays...

and having a ring instead of a bird (or a banknote) doesn't means the trick is yours!

Schryock NEITHER Paul Daniels are the creators of the orange, lemon, egg, ... trick

There was an interesting letter to the editor in the May issue of Magic Magazine that discussed this. Won't go into it here, check it out.

[quote]On 2010-06-30 02:24, Neznarf wrote:
Shed more light on what?
[/quote

Well, I may have missed something in the translation, but I thought this effect, which as I say I bought, was being called a ripoff. To me this sullies the effect as well as its author and requires response from those who know. Obviously, that is not me...

We had gotten this DVD in and it sold to the dealers really fast. we do have more coming in soon. You should be able to order this from your favorite dealer world wide. I think it is a great routine too.

This is the 1st I have heard of this, I do think someone mentioned that the "Millionaire Magician" ripped off someone, but not John Shryock, or are you refering to Pete Biro's statements.

Here is my current understanding of this effect. Millionaire Magician performed the effect on Late Nite with David Letterman. Millionaire Magician said that John Shryock helped solve his ending of the Walnut in Egg method.

If you have the video as stated, you know what John shryock says about it. To my knowledge it is the Millionaire Magician who may have routined his routine in the Classic order as so many other magicians have in the past and present.

To my knowledge none of the routines are in any way the same working, just the same props and effect as seen by an audience.

Thus far, I guess Millionaire Magician ripped Paul Daniels, who ripped off Alan Shaxon also of England. I am thinking and correct me as my memory is not clear in this regard, but did Paul Daniels borrow a ring or a Dollar Bill?

The effect should be a borrowed finger ring is vanished, walnut is vanished, then an Egg is vanished, then a lemon cannot be vanished. Lemon cut open and found an egg, broken open and found a walnut, cracked open and found the ring.

Anyway, all workings are very different and if you are performing this locally, I do not see what all the questioning in your mind is all about.

On one of my above post, if you take my idea of using an Egg Bag Rouine before this effect. When the lemon is cut open the audience will break out in laughter and that is what is all about, good clean entertainment.

I think Pete should clarify his statement. Cryptic statements such as "He knows the route it took, having done it here in the US at a convention. The person he had on stage is the one that copped it." does nothing to add to clarify the situation.

In this case it could be John or Steve Cohen. Since we are discussing John's DVD I believe we should know who Pete is talking about, otherwise it will just add to speculation. If Pete does not want to name the magician, perhaps he should not have made the comment.

John's routine is different then Cohen's as performed on Letterman. If you have the DVD you know this.

I am not supporting theft, but I question hindering a person from releasing a routine without facts. Often the effect predates the effect of the "victim" and I wonder how much of this argument is an exercise in futility.

I purchased the DVD, and it will be something I work on, but will have to work out my own routine, as I do not perform like John does (I lived in the same town as John for 8 years, so I have seen him often.)

Pete Biro is not saying much because it would possibly hurt sales of his new item 'Comedy Gold Ring Grinder' which is a ripe off of and is a copy of the original Roy Roth model. I do not see where he gave proper credit to the late Roy Roth, but he is dead, so I guess it does not matter to Pete Biro. He is selling it through Steven's Magic and the video is currently on Pete Biro dot com.

That being said, the Ring Ginder would be a great method to vanish the ring for the John Shryock Ring in Walnut routine.

Wmhegbli: ROY ROTH IS CREDITED IN THE INSTRUCTIONS.

Paul Daniels created this (the use of a WALNUT) for a routine for his son, well before Shaxon.

Paul's audience volunteer was Shyrock.

Paul's GRIPE is the use of the Walnut, which he created.

That should clear things up.

I second the Ring Grinder as an excellent method for the vanish. I performed Ring in Nest of Produce by John Shyrock based off of his 1999 manuscript in my stand-up act for repeat clients when I didn't want to do the Gumball machine. I used the Collectors Workshop Ring Grinder and used a Scotty York idea of having the spectator read the step by step instructions for the grinder.

I haven't seen the new dvd to see the history and credits, so I can't comment on that. No real need to purchase the dvd since I had no problem making it up from the manuscript. I don't imagine there is much different that he didn't cover in the origninal script from 10 years ago.

Thank you Pete.

John does credit a magician for the idea, I am pretty sure it was Paul Daniels, but I would have to check again.

I am not sure how to feel about such things. If John didn't know the method used for the walnut load and the load of the produce used by Daniels, does it make it a ripoff if credit is properly given, any more than Pete giving Roy Roth credit in the instructions for the Ring Grinder?

I believe if we didn't take things we saw and build routines based on them there would be stagnation in magic. Credit is given in BOTH cases. John's routine I believe is probably different then Daniel's (but I haven't seen it.)

I have never met Pete, but I have found his postings to be relevant and helpful much of the time here on the Café. John is a good guy, I don't think he would intentionally steal anything.

If this theme interests you, I would buy the DVD from John, and if Pete's Grinder is available and would work perhaps looking into that purchase would also interest many.

This effect is good, John gives a foundation for people to grow and produce a nice routine. How many year have to go by before an effect should be lost because no one is "allowed" to release an effect?

Dinger136 wrote: "How many year have to go by before an effect should be lost because no one is "allowed" to release an effect?"

I don't thing that is the issue at all. It has to do with a trick being produced. If a person like Roy Roth invented and manufactured a trick. And 50 years later someone found the prop and said this is a nice thing that should be on the market. Then it should be sold and named as the Roy Roth Grind-a-Ring by Pete Biro. This shows the effect is a copy of the original and is being re-introduced to the magic market. The prop Pete Biro is selling is identical to the originaal, although Roth used glitter covering on the outside. Is there any improvement to the appratus, no. Now if the new model was a totally different design and as in the Wolf product, then a mention in the instructions would be okay as to using an idea of Roy Roth's.

To my way of thinking there is a difference. Just because Roy Roth is no longer with us, and I do not know if this is true, or no longer making products of his invention, does not mean someone else can come along and make the identical thing and make claims on it.

I am happy Pete Biro put the item back on the market, I do wish him many sales and success in it those that purchase it. It is a good solution to vanishing a ring with little of no damage to the Ring that is borrowed.

If anyone wants the original instructions for the effect, and want to send me a picture of them with the prop or a copy of their invoice proving they purchased the Pete Biro model, I would be more then happy to send them a copy of the original instructions. From what I understand they do have a little different handling then what Pete is offering. They are only 1 page but the it is the information on the page that is important.

I thought that I should post a complete history of my “Ring In Walnut” routine. First of all, Mr. Biro’s statements are an inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts. Not only have I never assisted Paul Daniels in his “Bill in Walnut” routine, I have absolutely no recollection of ever seeing it performed in person. I did see Paul Daniels perform at the I.B.M. convention in Long Beach in 1986 and I did assist him on stage. However, the routine that I assisted was some kind of Milk Pitcher or Foo Can type of effect. I also recall seeing him perform a “Chop Cup” and a “Professor’s Nightmare.” I have absolutely no recollection of seeing a “Bill in Walnut.” I have spoken with a couple of friends who were also at this convention, neither of them recall a “Bill in Walnut” routine. But then again, that was 24 years ago. One of my friends actually has a picture of me assisting Paul in the “Milk Pitcher” routine. I am not saying that Paul Daniels did not perform the “Bill in Walnut” routine there, but I can say with wholehearted honesty that I had absolutely no recollection of it when I dreamt up my routine in 1995.

My routine was inspired by the stage “Orange, Lemon, Egg, Canary” (O,L,E,P) effect. In the mid nineties, I had the idea to make the produce out of latex so that the reset would be easier. A magician friend of mine, Bruce Martyn, used to manufacture latex items, so I had him make me a set. Quite a few other magicians heard about this and wanted the same thing. So, I sold them at lectures and conventions. I was booked to perform and lecture at the “Day of Magic” convention in Los Angeles and was picking up some sets of the latex produce at Bruce’s house on my way to the convention. Bruce also used to manufacture a “Pea and Shell” game set out of real walnuts. There was a 50 pound bag of walnuts sitting next to my latex produce order. In passing, Bruce mentioned something about how it would be neat to do a close-up version of the O,L,E,P. During the 8 hour drive to L.A., I thought about all of this and came up with a routine and method. I tried it that night when I got to L.A. It worked and I performed and lectured on it for the first time the next day at the convention.

I have since performed the routine at numerous national conventions, i.e., S.A.M, I.B.M, P.C.A.M., etc., lectures, and at the Magic Castle for fifteen years. I wrote up the routine in a manuscript in 1999 and basically just sold it at lectures and conventions where I performed. It was translated into Italian for a set of lecture notes I sold on a lecture tour of Italy in 2005. Steve Cohen purchased the original manuscript from me a few months ago and used some of my handling in his routine that he presented on the David Letterman show. In the quote that Steve gave me to help advertise the DVD, he mentions that he had been working on the routine for a number of years. I do not know what his initial inspiration was. Since that performance, I was contacted by numerous magicians wanting the routine. This prompted me to produce the DVD, something I had been thinking about doing for a number of years.

Something that strikes me as strange is that in 15 years of performance in front of thousands of magicians, and sales of hundreds of manuscripts, I have never been accused of stealing the routine. Only one time, at a convention in New Zealand in the winter of 2009, did anyone ever mention Paul Daniels. One of the magicians told me they thought that Paul Daniels had done some sort of ring in walnut routine on a TV show a number of years ago. I know that Paul has made countless television appearances in the UK and has probably performed more routines that even he can remember. I guess that I assumed that whatever he performed was some kind of “one-off” thing for one of his TV shows. I did, at that time, and before taping my DVD, do some internet and youtube searches for “ring in walnut” and found nothing. I had absolutely no idea that his “Bill In Walnut” has been a signature routine for 45 years.

After my DVD was shot, edited, and at the DVD replicator, I was first contacted via e-mail by Paul Daniels inquiring about how I came up with the original idea for my “Ring In Walnut.” I replied saying that I was a big fan of his and that I first saw him perform at the I.B.M. convention in 1986 and I helped him on stage for a routine (the Milk Pitcher effect). I then went on to describe how I came up with my routine, as mentioned above, and attached a clip from my DVD where I describe my history of the effect. Mr. Daniels replied saying that if I saw him in 1986 then I saw him perform his Bill in Walnut, in Egg, in Lemon routine, which has been his closing effect for 45 years. I immediately did a youtube search, this time for “bill in walnut” and found a clip from a DVD released by Meir Yedid Magic called “An Evening with Paul Daniels.” Believe me when I say that this was the first time that I have any recollection of ever seeing this routine. Although there is the obvious similarity of a borrowed item appearing inside of a walnut, inside of an egg, inside of a lemon, our routines and handling are completely different. I replied to Mr. Daniels, mentioning this and stated that in light of this information and the fact the DVDs were already scheduled to be shipped to me shrink-wrapped, that I was thinking of adding a sticker to the cover of the DVDs giving him credit for his routine of 45 years. I received no response from Mr. Daniels after this.

In talking about all of this with a good friend of mine who is also a knowledgeable historian of magic, I learned of an Orson Welles effect described by Bruce Elliot in the 1948 book, “Magic as a Hobby,” featuring a coin in egg, in orange, in grapefruit routine. I went to the trouble and expense of adding a sticker to the cover of the DVD crediting both Orson Welles and Paul Daniels, simply because I thought it was the right thing to do.

Since this, I also learned from another friend that in the locked book, “Exclusive Magical Secrets,” published in 1911, there is a Charles Bertram trick, “Coin in Walnut.” I only mention this to state that neither I, nor Paul Daniels, were the first magicians to find a borrowed item in a walnut or in a nest of produce.

I am sorry that this post has taken so long, but I really thought that it was important to give my full and honest history of this effect and set the facts completely straight. To everyone who has purchased this DVD so far, I thank you very much. I am very grateful for the many kind e-mails I have received from people who enjoyed the DVD and I sincerely hope that you all have as much success and fun performing the routine as I have.

All the best,
John Shryock

Thanks for the explanation, John.

Jim

Good job John!

Thanks John, appreciate your history of the effect. In my conversation with Paul he "thought" you were the audience member when he did the Walnut.

Anyway, as I said, thanks for your detailed explanation. Success with your sales and one thing I note... You have but ONE POST... You have a lot to offer, and if you have the time and interest, it would be great to see you post more often.

Note to Wmhegbli: Joe Stevens is going to include the Roth Instructions with the Ring Grinders. There is some inside differences to the originals, thanks to the clever working of Tabby Crabb, AKA The Tabman and EL TAB.