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Tom Cutts
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Might we agree that the majority of 300 lb people couldn't accurately tell you how many calories they or their kids eat in a day? Such is my experience.
stoneunhinged
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Tom, for what it's worth, I gained fifteen pounds when I quit smoking, and I cut my calorie intake to compensate. I'm still rather lanky, but have a roll around my waste-line that didn't exist before. I figure I'm better off with the roll than the nicotine, so it doesn't bother me. But It is not misinformation to say that even careful people can gain weight when they quit smoking.

I'm forced to eat healthy most of the time. My wife is a leftist, hippy, organic food eating, ecologically-minded, vegetarian leftist who brushes her teeth after kissing me. I mean, the woman is weird. So here in the house we eat right. And we brush our teeth afterwards.

However, my son--who is eleven--has a roll around his waste, too. He also has an unbelievable appetite. He's about 5'5" already. When he hits puberty he's going to eat us into the poor house. I'm guessing he's going to be something like 6'5" or 6'6" and well over 200 lbs. when he finishes growing.

Now, one might try to criticize my wife and I for our lack of intelligence, education, income, or social class for my son's eating habits. But one might miscalculate in that regard, too.

So let's forget about poor people and Twinkies for a moment. What about well-educated, high IQd, wealthy hippie-types who buy organic and are totally health conscious whose children are overweight? Who do we blame then? The schools? The lack of magician entertainers?

Simply blaming the parents is also a red herring.
Tom Cutts
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Yes even careful people can miscalculate what they are really eating, so imagine what trouble not careful people could face and the assistence they could benefit from. If you put on weight, you failed to compensate effectively. Could be many reasons, not the least of which is it just isn't that important to you. If your purported beer consumption is accurate, I'd venture a guess that plenty of calories are hiding right there. Beer and wine have a surprising amount of calories. Same with fruit juice.

If you are gaining weight when you don't want to, or if you can't lose the weight you want, it is a miscalculation in the accuracy of caloric intake. One can eat healthy foods and still eat too much of them. As I have mentioned before, some foods masquerade as healthy when they are not. I read an analysis that the calories in the tortilla or pita in a wrap are more than the calories in two pieces of bread. So much for the wrap vs. sandwich debate. Besides, what magician performs playing card wrap effects?
EsnRedshirt
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That's why I go for rye bread- tasty, and low on the glycemic index!
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LobowolfXXX
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[quote]On 2010-06-15 01:46, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:


Might we agree that the majority of 300 lb people couldn't accurately tell you how many calories they or their kids eat in a day? Such is my experience.


Yes, but I don't think a majority of 150-lb people could tell you how many calories they or their children could eat in a day, either.

What I do think an overwhelming majority of 300-lb people know is that to lose weight, they'd need to eat less/healthier and/or exercise more.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Tom Cutts
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And if they have no idea how much, the likelihood of their success is not very good. Kind of like saying to get to Mexico, just start heading south.
LobowolfXXX
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I think it's more like telling the guy in that joke who says, "Doctor, it hurts every time I do this" as he hits his head...to stop hitting his head. ok, it's not high humor, but we all know why the joke works - cuz it don't take no doctor.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Actually, Tom, on reflection, I think your analogy IS better. It *is* a lot like saying to get to Mexico, head south. A lot of people won't do it, because it might take months, and it's a long walk, and it's tiring and boring. And the ones who start heading south, from most points in the United States anyway, and keep on heading south, even though it's tiring and boring and time-consuming...well, they'll end up in Mexico. And all the after-school programs in the world won't change the fact that it's the individuals who have to do the work (for the exercise part) and/or exercise the discipline (for the dietary part)...so it's not like a motivational speaker can DRIVE them to Mexico. So, yeah...to get to Mexico, you go south. And if it sucks, you keep on going south. Then you end up in Mexico. And most people know that to get to Mexico you go south. So I still can't get behind a taxpayer-funded effort to tell people, in an entertaining way, that Mexico is south of the USA. People know where it is; they just don't all want to work all that hard to get there. I know you were being facetious and all, but man, that was a hell of a good analogy. I can't believe I almost missed it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Tom Cutts
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My high school took students every year in an after school program to Baja Mexico. We studied the biology there in that ecosystem. So yes, an after school program can get you there.
Davit Sicseek
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The failure to manage one's caloric intake in proportion to one's active intensity and metabolism over a prolonged period of time builds up storehouses of fat within one's person.


This should not be news to any moderately educated person. But does it really answer the question of 'why' people get fat. In a way it does answer the 'why', but it answers it in the same way that explaining why the penniless car owner's vehicle stopped working. It's because he failed to manage his car's petrol intake in proportion to it's usage of said petrol - technically true, but hardly illuminating. Of course, if the driver had a bit more self dicipline or wasn't so lazy, he could have worked a bit longer, earned some more money and have the $ to put some more petrol in his car.

Very few people have the knowledge and self dicipline to accuratly control their weight through their conscious day-to-day descisions. Old habits can be difficult to break and we mustn't forget that we are fighting against our genetic disposition to sweet foods and the satisfaction that a full stomach provides us. At this stage, one may as well throw stupidity and genuine laziness into the mix and you'd have to accept that for the vast majority of people, far or thin, don't and are unable to effectivly manage their calorie intake.

The root cause of their weight situation is their calorie management, but for most people, this manifests itself to them through the lifestyle habits thave have, rather than through calorie management choices.

Someone who needs to reduce their weight needs to change their lifestyle and form new, healthier habits that will have the effect of reducing their calorie intake/increase their burning of calories. In my opinion, the easiest way to do that is to find something active that you really enjoy doing and start doing it.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
EsnRedshirt
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Davit, don't forget that there's also an endorphine release associated with cardiovascular exercise- so we're also genetically predispositioned to run, jog, etc. It's just that basic bad habits and lack of working out often mean people never feel the endorphines, and never get into the habit of exercise.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Some of the posters (youngsters, perhaps) discount the fact that age and health conspire to make exercise difficult.

If you add it responsibility and lifestyle, it can be difficult--what will it be: work out or take care of my family responsibilities?

Also, as Al pointed out a few pages back, some cities are well designed for a walking-based lifestyle. It is much easier to keep active in a place where walking is the best and most efficient way of getting around. Many cities (including mine, I'm afraid) are designed for cars, not people.

Of course, none of this condemns anyone to unfitness. But it is not simple for many people.

John (BMI 27, sadly)
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
EsnRedshirt
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John, so true- after my son was born, it became much more difficult to exercise.

There's an easy way to make a city condusive to walking- don't have any parking spaces Smile Seriously, if it's more convenient to walk than drive, people will walk. New York's apparently like this; San Francisco definately is. And when my wife and I went to London, I found it even more pedestrian-friendly than NY and SF. Of course, all of those cities also have decent public transportation. Cities like Los Angeles aren't so lucky. And the suburbs where so many live? You can walk a lot, but it's certainly a lot less convenient than driving.
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Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2010-06-15 08:57, Davit Sicseek
In a way it does answer the 'why', but it answers it in the same way that explaining why the penniless car owner's vehicle stopped working. It's because he failed to manage his car's petrol intake in proportion to it's usage of said petrol - technically true, but hardly illuminating. Of course, if the driver had a bit more self dicipline or wasn't so lazy, he could have worked a bit longer, earned some more money and have the $ to put some more petrol in his car.
Actually it's more like telling the lady in the gas station who is about to pour oil in her radiator, that she is making a mistake and needs to put it in the crank case. Its even more like telling the person whose car is out of gas that if they drove at a more fuel efficient speed, they would get where they are going more cost effectively, barring time cost of course.
Quote:
the easiest way to do that is to find something active that you really enjoy doing and start doing it.
This is a common wisdom which falls short on results. It certainly helps if the activity you wish to undertake is one you like to and will do regularly. Unfortunately, such condensed wisdom sabotages people who take it at face value. That statement does not account for the plateau factor which causes your body to stop responding over time to consistent repetitive activities. An educated and experienced trainer can explain this and set up an activity program which does account for this factor and help one achieve their weight management goals.

Davit's statement also does not address that an increase in activity typically results in an increase of appetite. If all one does is increase activity, one will naturally be more hungry. The end result is little or no result toward weight management.

These are two more great points why accurate knowledge of weight management should be taught in school.

John, I believe that a demonstration of consistent exercising for health is a familial responsibility. Same as demonstrating fiscal responsibility and emotional responsibility is. Children learn by example.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-06-15 11:20, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

John (BMI 27, sadly)

Spoke with an old friend of mine the other day. He's been accepted into a special diet program / clinical trial. His BMI and % of fat content in his body are like 63 and 69 (or vice versa). In any case, both are well over 60!
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Tom Cutts
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Wow, I'm guessing they are going to provide education for him rather than just tell him he already knows what he needs to do?

I wish him determination and results in both creating and maintaining the weight he desires.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-06-15 13:36, Tom Cutts wrote:
Wow, I'm guessing they are going to provide education for him rather than just tell him he already knows what he needs to do?

I'm not aware of all of the specifics, but I assume so. It's also a fairly new style of diet, designed and being studied for those who are way up there on the scales, weight wise. Interestingly, even though he is so heavy, his blood sugar, cholesterol, stress levels, and everything else (that often goes along with obesity) are all fine. That's another reason why he is being studied.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
epoptika
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I do not think that all fat people are stupid. I am sympathetic to the fact that people get overweight for a multitude of reasons, both physical and psychological, and it is often nearly impossible for many people to overcome. I think it is cruel and unforgivable to openly ridicule people for being overweight. (Although private jokes about fat kids are generally a source of amusement to me. Nobody is perfect.)

That being said I see little excuse for the explosion of obesity in our country, especially in very young people, beyond pure, simple, stupid behavior. When I see fat people feeding their fat kids junk food and soft drinks they are just plain stupid. You don't need a PhD in nutrition to know better. The average American spends 7 hours a day watching television where they natter about diet and nutrition endlessly. How could you pretend not to know that crap food is going to make you fat and unhealthy. If you are 40 years old or more and want to let yourself get rotund that is your right. But people who make their kids fat before they have a chance to make the choice themselves ought to be tarred and feathered.

Besides, they are aesthetically displeasing to me and offend my eyes.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-06-15 13:26, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-15 11:20, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

John (BMI 27, sadly)

Spoke with an old friend of mine the other day. He's been accepted into a special diet program / clinical trial. His BMI and % of fat content in his body are like 63 and 69 (or vice versa). In any case, both are well over 60!


Wow. I wish your friend well. He's got a tough road ahead.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MagicSanta
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Epoptika, I hate to tell you this but I really don't do other forums. Sorry. This is the ultimate magic forum! Lastly you don't iritate me at all. Sure you are a little lost but I figure you are harmless in your bliss.
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