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panlives
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Hi All,
After reading the thread below about signed cards, I am asking if anyone has ever seen, heard about or worked out the logistics of having a ball (or balls, plural) either signed (initialed is probably more practical) or marked in some other singularly unique way?
Does anyone see the potential for a routine that uses balls in this way - in effect, balls that could not possibly be generic duplicates of hidden spherical accomplices?

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=2&94
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Woland
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Panlives,

Not exactly what you are looking for, but Mr. Kent Gunn's brilliant "Fun Shop Cups and Balls" routine uses one red, one white, and one blue ball -- they are not interchangeable, so it definitely appears that the same ball is moving around.

Woland
Bill Palmer
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You would need to explain the context.

I find Marc Man's argument to be obnoxious, contentious and terribly ignorant.

You would probably need to be more specific.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 13:08, Bill Palmer wrote:
You would need to explain the context.

I find Marc Man's argument to be obnoxious, contentious and terribly ignorant.

You would probably need to be more specific.

Hi Mr. Palmer,
Thank you for the reply.
I also disagree with the central premise of Mr. Man’s card argument – but it has elicited some fantastic replies (including yours).
I was just wondering if anyone has used the signed card premise in a Cups & Balls context?
Do you know of any routines of this nature?
This thought came about while watching a few dozen routines on YouTube, with my non-magician friends.
In some routines, which I thought were excellent, the non-magicians started to voice concerns about duplicates, gaffed cups, etc…
Could an initialed or marked ball or set of balls unique to the spectator leverage any advantage and possibly off-set suspicion?
You know more about the logic of building a Cups & Balls routine than anyone I have ever encountered, so I guess the ball is in your court!
Many thanks for considering this thought,

Quote:
On 2010-06-16 12:56, Woland wrote:
Panlives,

Not exactly what you are looking for, but Mr. Kent Gunn's brilliant "Fun Shop Cups and Balls" routine uses one red, one white, and one blue ball -- they are not interchangeable, so it definitely appears that the same ball is moving around.

Woland

Hi Woland,
Thank you - yes, this is one of the routines we watched on YouTube and it was a smash hit. The differing ball colours and the construction of the routine played VERY strongly with the non-magician viewers.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
gaddy
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You could mark the balls with a sticker that the spectator can sign.

For the record, I think drawing any attention to the balls in such a manner is a bad idea. You're not off-setting attention by doing this, you're drawing further attention to the primary artifice of the trick.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 13:29, gaddy wrote:
You could mark the balls with a sticker that the spectator can sign.

For the record, I think drawing any attention to the balls in such a manner is a bad idea. You're not off-setting attention by doing this, you're drawing further attention to the primary artifice of the trick.


...hence the heretical nature of my thought, perhaps...I am still left wondering if there is a way to build the logic of such a routine so that it smashes conventional thinking and presents the effect in a new light...
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:06, panlives wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 13:29, gaddy wrote:
You could mark the balls with a sticker that the spectator can sign.

For the record, I think drawing any attention to the balls in such a manner is a bad idea. You're not off-setting attention by doing this, you're drawing further attention to the primary artifice of the trick.


...hence the heretical nature of my thought, perhaps...I am still left wondering if there is a way to build the logic of such a routine so that it smashes conventional thinking and presents the effect in a new light...


I suppose it could be the basis for a good routine for fooling magicians...

That's partly why Kent's "Fun Shop C&B" is so powerful -it floors magicians even harder than lay people, because magicians are under the false impression that they "know how it's done"...

Otherwise I think one is giving the spectators far too much to think about in what is, at it's heart, a very fast paced "surprise" routine. They are far more surprised by, and concerned with, the appearances and disappearances of the little balls/big balls to be caught up in a "rational investigation-committee" type thought-processes of examining the positions of individual balls. Or at least they should be...

Mixing the two emotional states one is attempting to elicit in one's audience appears, to me, as if it could become very boring very quickly.

Perhaps you'll find a way. I've offered my suggestion of signed stickers, if you're interested feel free to use it! (credit in the instruction pamphlet would be nice, thanks!)
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:17, gaddy wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:06, panlives wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 13:29, gaddy wrote:
You could mark the balls with a sticker that the spectator can sign.

For the record, I think drawing any attention to the balls in such a manner is a bad idea. You're not off-setting attention by doing this, you're drawing further attention to the primary artifice of the trick.


...hence the heretical nature of my thought, perhaps...I am still left wondering if there is a way to build the logic of such a routine so that it smashes conventional thinking and presents the effect in a new light...


I suppose it could be the basis for a good routine for fooling magicians...

That's partly why Kent's "Fun Shop C&B" is so powerful -it floors magicians even harder than lay people, because magicians are under the false impression that they "know how it's done"...

Otherwise I think one is giving the spectators far too much to think about in what is, at it's heart, a very fast paced "surprise" routine. They are far more surprised by, and concerned with, the appearances and disappearances of the little balls/big balls to be caught up in a "rational investigation-committee" type thought-processes of examining the positions of individual balls. Or at least they should be...

Mixing the two emotional states one is attempting to elicit in one's audience appears, to me, as if it could become very boring very quickly.

Perhaps you'll find a way. I've offered my suggestion of signed stickers, if you're interested feel free to use it! (credit in the instruction pamphlet would be nice, thanks!)


I am not as concerned, for the sake of the thought experiment, with the mechanics (a sticker or initials directly onto the fabric of a ball) so much as the logical structure of such a routine.

As for fast-paced – yes, in some cases. However, I have seen some brilliant routines that are slower, with measured pacing.

As for what a spectator may intuit, or suspect, there are many patter lines leading to final loads that begin with, “Ok, I know what you are thinking. There has to be another ball…well, there is!” (this is followed by the large load – same colour, larger ball).

What if the same verbal structure led to an initialed ball being put into play before the final loads? Another layer, another dimension of impossibility, perhaps, before the denouement?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Bill Palmer
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There are several routines that use different colored balls. Aldo Colombini has a couple of them for sale.

I really don't see the point of it, though. I do see and understand the reason that signed cards are used for a CTW routine. The first thing that comes to the spectator's mind with such a routine is that there are duplicate cards used. In the cups and balls, you have three balls which look exactly alike. It doesn't take a great leap to realize that sometimes what the spectator is looking at is not the same ball, but another one.

That's part of the misdirection of the cups and balls. It takes the spectator's mind away from the real secret. When the utter impossibility of the thing dawns on them, then they are hit with the final loads.

Signing or marking the balls during the performance would put a temporal roadblock into the rhythm of the routine. In a CTW routine, this can be done right at the beginning, while the performer is conversing with the spectators. Colored balls eliminate the necessity of breaking the rhythm.

Also, the card has a lot of convenient space where the spectator can sign. It's like signing a check or signing a receipt. But signing a ball is a rather odd request.

Then there is the cost factor. A playing card is a relatively cheap object. Even at £5 a pack, the cost of a playing card is only 10p. A crocheted ball is, even to the most jaded spectator, a costly thing.

I think marking the balls works its way into the realm of "over-proving."
"The Swatter"

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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 15:21, Bill Palmer wrote:
There are several routines that use different colored balls. Aldo Colombini has a couple of them for sale.

I really don't see the point of it, though. I do see and understand the reason that signed cards are used for a CTW routine. The first thing that comes to the spectator's mind with such a routine is that there are duplicate cards used. In the cups and balls, you have three balls which look exactly alike. It doesn't take a great leap to realize that sometimes what the spectator is looking at is not the same ball, but another one.

That's part of the misdirection of the cups and balls. It takes the spectator's mind away from the real secret. When the utter impossibility of the thing dawns on them, then they are hit with the final loads.

Signing or marking the balls during the performance would put a temporal roadblock into the rhythm of the routine. In a CTW routine, this can be done right at the beginning, while the performer is conversing with the spectators. Colored balls eliminate the necessity of breaking the rhythm.

Also, the card has a lot of convenient space where the spectator can sign. It's like signing a check or signing a receipt. But signing a ball is a rather odd request.

Then there is the cost factor. A playing card is a relatively cheap object. Even at £5 a pack, the cost of a playing card is only 10p. A crocheted ball is, even to the most jaded spectator, a costly thing.

I think marking the balls works its way into the realm of "over-proving."



Hi Mr. Palmer,
Thank you for the insight.
If it works at all, the ball(s) would have to be signed at the start of the routine. Your comment about a temporal roadblock is duly noted.

In the end, I find myself deferring to your unparalleled expertise: this may be a case of over-proving.

Thank you, by the way, for the references to the Colombini multi-colour routine – which others are for sale?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
The Burnaby Kid
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This is actually an interesting question to me.

Magicians who do a one-cup routine have it taken for granted that they're using the same ball throughout... at first. After a while, the way the routine unfolds can lead a spectator to the conclusion that more than one ball is in play. A marked ball could dispel that suspicion somewhat, but it'd also be a weird thing to motivate. Sometimes magicians embrace the suspicion that more than one ball is in play, in order to set up the final load (ie: "Some people think I've got more than one ball. Yuk yuk yuk. Actually, I do, but it's no help to me in this routine because it's a bit too big." etc.).

Usually, with a card, a bill, or a coin, the item is marked in order to communicate that a really big single effect is coming up, but we also don't always tip exactly where the item is going to go. With a one-cup routine, there's a different dynamic going on -- there are many effects going on, and the surprise is pretty much telegraphed from the beginning.

To use a marked ball legitimately, one would have to compromise drastically on method. As such, we usually leverage other aspects of the routine to our advantage. A wand allows for nice, innocent-seeming displays. A chop cup allows you to lift the cup fairly twice, and one time there's no ball, and another time there is a ball -- whether or not the ball is the same one is moot, since if it's NOT the same ball (the implied effect) then that means an entirely new ball materialized out of nowhere, a rare situation where the alternate explanation suggests a higher power claim than what is actually claimed. Openly using more than one ball (such as for a 2-in-the-hands/1-in-the-pocket routine) changes the way the prop-to-effect relationship is perceived -- it's almost about multiplying props rather than a teleportation.

That said, I've been messing about with a one-cup routine that uses none of the above advantages (it's a routine involving an ungimmicked cup and no wand), and I'm constantly running into the problem of people assuming I've got more than one ball. I'm willing to accept that for the moment for several reasons: the final loads still hit hard; it's ok presentationally for that routine to have a sleight-of-hand feeling to it (my character is a hardcore trickster); and it's funny as hell when somebody asks how many balls I've got. In the long run, though, I may have to ditch this for the chop cup. The interesting thing is that a marked ball would actually help me out, but presentationally it'd be difficult to work that in.

EDIT: And of course, Bill was correct in pointing out that Merc Man is a twit.
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Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 16:05, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
This is actually an interesting question to me.

Magicians who do a one-cup routine have it taken for granted that they're using the same ball throughout... at first. After a while, the way the routine unfolds can lead a spectator to the conclusion that more than one ball is in play. A marked ball could dispel that suspicion somewhat, but it'd also be a weird thing to motivate.

[...]


A very simple solution would be to simply bring out a small box - similar to that used to hold the balls for 3-cushion billiards (but much smaller) - and open it to reveal a red ball, white ball, and blue ball. Offer a spectator her choice of which ball you will use, perhaps under the guise of graciously wanting to use her "favorite color".

Naturally, to clear your work space you'll want to put the small box back into your pocket (or performance case, or whatever), where you may very well be keeping one or more copies of each color ball, um... in case you lose one... you know?

TW
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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 16:57, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 16:05, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
This is actually an interesting question to me.

Magicians who do a one-cup routine have it taken for granted that they're using the same ball throughout... at first. After a while, the way the routine unfolds can lead a spectator to the conclusion that more than one ball is in play. A marked ball could dispel that suspicion somewhat, but it'd also be a weird thing to motivate.

[...]


A very simple solution would be to simply bring out a small box - similar to that used to hold the balls for 3-cushion billiards (but much smaller) - and open it to reveal a red ball, white ball, and blue ball. Offer a spectator her choice of which ball you will use, perhaps under the guise of graciously wanting to use her "favorite color".

Naturally, to clear your work space you'll want to put the small box back into your pocket (or performance case, or whatever), where you may very well be keeping one or more copies of each color ball, um... in case you lose one... you know?

TW


Nice!
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
The Burnaby Kid
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I'm not so sure that I totally buy into the idea of a choice of ball colour. I think that if you've constructed your routine correctly, it'll appear as though there's no place for additional balls to come from or go to. If you've got a construction this solid, then the specifics of the ball won't matter as much. Even Darwin Ortiz, in talking about the Card To Impossible Location in Designing Miracles, mentioned that it was possible to get around having the object signed so long as certain conditions were met.

Similarly, if it appears as though additional balls could have come from somewhere or gone to somewhere, then it won't make a difference if they had a choice of ball colour -- there's still the potential for extra balls to be in play. Considering what other neat things magicians are capable of, being able to produce extra balls of one of three colours seems pretty plausible.
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It seems all for naught to me.
The real appeal of the cups is that objects appear under them.
After the penetrations and transpositions, appearances and vanishes, the only thing that matters is that there are impossible objects under the cups. (There is a strong argument that the little balls, and their tricks, are just there to help us get there.)

Unless there is a need for Signed Ball to Impossible Location, it seems pointless.

I'm inclined to think that a Signed Ball to Impossible Location would probably be a ping pong ball - it's white, large enough to be autograhed or initialed and readily available enough for it to be disposable. But I can't for the life of me see how this is a good "addition" to a cups and balls routine - the mechanics required would make a cup routine... uneven... or clumsy.
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Another possibility, Andrew, is to use a 'found' object. I have performed Chop Type effects using a coffee cup and jelly packets, creamers, dinner mints and nuts. Since the spectator hands you the object there is no question of an extra object in their minds (which you have, of course)
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Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2010-06-16 18:02, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
I'm not so sure that I totally buy into the idea of a choice of ball colour. [...]


You're right. Sorry I foolishly tried to help.

TW
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gaddy
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Quote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:50, panlives wrote:
I've offered my suggestion of signed stickers, if you're interested feel free to use it! (credit in the instruction pamphlet would be nice, thanks!)


I am not as concerned, for the sake of the thought experiment, with the mechanics (a sticker or initials directly onto the fabric of a ball) so much as the logical structure of such a routine.


Wait, so you're saying this whole thread is a waste of time? Meaningless idle speculation? Mental masturbation?

OK, that's cool. Thanks for clearing that up then...
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2010-06-17 01:52, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 18:02, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
I'm not so sure that I totally buy into the idea of a choice of ball colour. [...]


You're right. Sorry I foolishly tried to help.


Thomas, I promise I won't take it personally if you offer a rebuttal.
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Hansel
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Marking balls for me are running without been chased.
Three colored balls routines are great, but are "magician foolers".
A very interesting issue, my friend and partner Reynold Alexander did the Bullet Catch in a publicity stunt here in Puerto Rico, probably 15 years ago a man come to Puerto Rico and do the REAL bullet catch, yes the real thing I mean. He put a type of metal cylinder in his mouth and been shot with a minimum caliber gun. You know what is interesting? This guy do THE REAL THING, and don't bother to have bullets signed, or marked or whatever.
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