The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » "Marked" balls? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Ralf Bialla, most likely. Interestingly, he died...not doing the bullet catch, but in an automobile accident.

Re: Ball to an impossible location --

Lonnie Chevrie has an incredible version of "Beanie Weenie," which involves a can of chocolate pudding. Toward the end of the routine, he introduces a golf ball which disappears and is found inside the can of chocolate pudding.

The shock of finding a golf ball inside a sealed pudding can is so strong that nobody ever questions whether it's the same ball.

Thomas Wayne's idea has merit.

Another that might work just as well would be to have a marked, but not signed ball.

I'll refer you to Dai Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig, page 132: "Leipzig's Pride," which describes the way Leipzig treated the sixpence coin. The mark would be on the ball at the start. You NEVER call attention to it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
yin_howe
View Profile
Special user
Malaysia
797 Posts

Profile of yin_howe
This routine performed on a Taiwanese variety show sounds exactly like what you are talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oBGhtEDRLQ
"Talent without passion is talent wasted.."
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
He kinda jumped the shark with the ball ending up inside the fruit.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
3054 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
John Carney's Fruit Cup employs a marked ball of sorts. The marking is only verified after it appears in the lemon, though.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
panlives
View Profile
Inner circle
2087 Posts

Profile of panlives
Whatever one might think about the routine's merits, he the Taiwanese perfromer) did try to work out the basic logic of a signed ball routine...perhaps there is more to explore conceptually?

Quote:
On 2010-06-17 01:59, gaddy wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:50, panlives wrote:
I've offered my suggestion of signed stickers,if you're interested feel free to use it! (credit in the instruction pamphlet would be nice, thanks!)

I am not as concerned, for the sake of the thought experiment, with the mechanics (a sticker or initials directly onto the fabric of a ball) so much as the logical structure of such a routine.

Wait, so you're saying this whole thread is a waste of time? Meaningless idle speculation? Mental !@#$%^&*()_+?

OK, that's cool. Thanks for clearing that up then...


Dear Sir,

I may have been unclear in my choice of words.

By “mechanics”, I mean the modality of signing, initialing or marking the ball. It could be a Sharpie mark or a sticker (the preferred method of the Taiwanese performer).

By “logical structure of the routine,” I mean to explore the concept itself: does it have the potential to stretch our collective thinking and consider new approaches to our beloved classic? Can such a routine be built that works for a real audience? Opinions varied – most thought it was a case of over-kill.

Every effect begins with a thought, an idea. I was under the impression that this Café promotes the free and open exchange of ideas in the service of our art. I defer to the experts like Mr. Palmer, who are candid and critical but always reach out a helping hand to those of us who may suggest even the silliest of ideas.

To dismiss a thought-experiment, an idea, as a “waste of time,” “meaningless idle speculation,” and “mental !@#$%^&*()_+” is of course your right.

I apologize if I was unclear in my reply to you, but suggest that perhaps you do not know what constitutes polite interaction on a public forum.

Wishing you a pleasant week end.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
The Taiwanese performer's routine is not, by any means, without merit. Neither is the concept of using a marked ball, in general.

However, there are times that we need to consider the performance venue and the performer, himself (or herself). And this is where it becomes interesting.

Let's think back to David Blaine's first couple of television specials. He was raked over the coals in this forum because some of the material he did "apparently" was done with, shall we say, more than a number of secret assistants and/or external trickery. In other words, he basically couldn't walk into your living room and do the material (according to the nay-sayers). Many magicians panned David Blaine.

Then we see the videos of Cyril Takayama, when he did his famous hamburger trick and when he did his "torn and restored fish" routine. There was also the famous card in the aquarium, which he did both in a restaurant and in the big Japanese public aquarium. Nobody complained that there was some very serious gaffing involved. Nobody seemed to be bothered by the idea that maybe the "fish market" Cyril performed the fish trick in was not your ordinary fish market. Or that the small aquarium he did the card in the aquarium routine with was completely out of place in the big Japanese public aquarium. Most of the American magicians who panned Blaine praised Takayama.

Still, there was no basic difference. In all of these presentations, the location was a "set", that is, a stage setting. They were shooting "on location."

Let's think back to some of Criss Angel's earlier work where he was using much less outside help than he apparently is now. Remember when he went through the window? That was a good trick. Or when he pulled the woman into two pieces on the park bench? That was a good trick. So was his "impaled" on the wrought iron fence.

The setups made it appear as if he were just walking up to a random shop window and passing through, pulling a random spectator into two parts (Kevin James and earlier performers notwithstanding) or impaling himself on a random fence.

As magicians, we know this isn't what is happening. But we have several different audiences here.

First, there are the people who are actually watching the show in person. That is, any spectators who have managed to get into the shooting area. Then we have the lay audience at home, and then we have the magicians.

These shows aren't video'd and broadcasted for the magicians. They are intended for the lay audiences. We should appreciate them as such and recognize when the bar has actually been set higher.

In the case of the Taiwanese magician, he was performing for four distinctly separate audiences. One was the panel of judges (or whatever they were!). One was the live audience. One was the lay audience watching on television, and the last was the magicians who are watching. I think each audience saw something different.

The question is whether the effort required to perform these miracles, large or small, is worth it.

The answer is up to you.

There is a point at which a routine crosses over into the realm of the impractical or the totally impossible, which can lead the viewer whose skill with Occam's razor has been finely honed to the correct solution. This is the essence of the "too perfect theory."

One of the Asian magicians, possibly Lu Chen, has a coins through the glass top table routine that, while impressive, actually telegraphs the method to the experienced magician. On the other hand, it is very impressive, albeit not very portable.

So, it basically boils down to a rather complex ratio of "[(entertainment value + fooling them)/(effort required + portability)] x (number of possible performing venues/conditional restrictions)." If you can come up with an idea that allows this to be performed in a wide range of conditions without looking like a puzzle, then your exercise is definitely worthwhile.

And even if you can't, you will have the knowledge you have gained of what is and isn't practical.

As a side note, but definitely relevant to this -- at a Michael Ammar lecture in Houston a few years ago, Mike discussed his earlier criteria for a cups and balls routine. He wanted a routine that could be performed with the sleeves rolled up, no jacket and a host of other requirements. He described the paths he had taken. His conclusion was that the lay audience really didn't care whether his sleeves were rolled up or not or whether or not he was wearing a jacket.

Was his former effort wasted? Probably not. I'm glad he told me his conclusions so I could avoid certain things that he had done.

So, keep up your efforts.

Illegitimi non carborundum.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Donnie Buckley
View Profile
V.I.P.
Cleveland, Ohio
1123 Posts

Profile of Donnie Buckley
Bill, I love the equation!
"[(entertainment value + fooling them)/(effort required + portability)] x (number of possible performing venues/conditional restrictions)."
Learn the form, but seek the formless. Learn it all, then forget it all. Learn the way, then find your own way. Rings-N-Things
gaddy
View Profile
Inner circle
Agent of Chaos
3149 Posts

Profile of gaddy
Quote:
On 2010-06-18 08:28, panlives wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-17 01:59, gaddy wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
On 2010-06-16 14:50, panlives wrote:
I've offered my suggestion of signed stickers, if you're interested feel free to use it! (credit in the instruction pamphlet would be nice, thanks!)


I am not as concerned, for the sake of the thought experiment, with the mechanics (a sticker or initials directly onto the fabric of a ball) so much as the logical structure of such a routine.


Wait, so you're saying this whole thread is a waste of time? Meaningless idle speculation? Mental masturbation?

OK, that's cool. Thanks for clearing that up then...


Dear Sir,

I may have been unclear in my choice of words.

By “mechanics”, I mean the modality of signing, initialing or marking the ball. It could be a Sharpie mark or a sticker (the preferred method of the Taiwanese performer).

By “logical structure of the routine,” I mean to explore the concept itself: does it have the potential to stretch our collective thinking and consider new approaches to our beloved classic? Can such a routine be built that works for a real audience? Opinions varied – most thought it was a case of over-kill.

Every effect begins with a thought, an idea. I was under the impression that this Café promotes the free and open exchange of ideas in the service of our art.
I defer to the experts like Mr. Palmer, who are candid and critical but always reach out a helping hand to those of us who may suggest even the silliest of ideas.

To dismiss a thought-experiment, an idea, as a “waste of time,” “meaningless idle speculation,” and “mental masturbation” is of course your right.

I apologize if I was unclear in my reply to you, but suggest that perhaps you do not know what constitutes polite interaction on a public forum.

Wishing you a pleasant week end.

If you will be so kind as to review this thread, you will see that I am perfectly willing to entertain such flights of fancy as this -up to a point. I'm terribly sorry if my simple, and common enough, euphemism offended you or upset you, But I think it's an apt one.

And I further apologize to you for attempting to cut you off short, but so often here on the Café we see new members drone on-and-on about such relatively trivial minutia such as this; always quick to rebut anyone's objections or to add a further speculation on top of speculation about some item or other that has caught their attention.

Eventually it becomes a matter of weather or not it's time to "Fish Or Cut Bait".

We've talked about this, we've given you our suggestions, you've challenged or expounded on these suggestions in a very well-spoken manner; NOW, are you going to actually work up a routine using this awesome new tool at your disposal, or are you going to continue to contemplate it in the abstract -as if it's some sort of rare-and-beautiful idea in an "idea museum", gazing further and further down into the bellybutton of internet bulletin board thought-experiments?

However, as you so helpfully pointed out, it is your "right" to talk about anything you choose for as long as you desire to do so.

Welcome to The Magic Café.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
I don't think this is mental masturbation at all. In fact, even though I don't particularly see the need for the marked ball, I do see some value in the concept.

I would like to see this go into a new thread in the Secret Sessions where we can discuss actual techniques without any restrictions.

Frankly, I was impressed with the idea that the sticker could remain on the ball when it went into the fruit. Smile
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
3054 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
Quote:
On 2010-06-18 11:58, Bill Palmer wrote:
So, it basically boils down to a rather complex ratio of "[(entertainment value + fooling them)/(effort required + portability)] x (number of possible performing venues/conditional restrictions)."

They said there wouldn't be any math.

Quote:
Illegitimi non carborundum.

And they definitely said there wouldn't be any Latin...
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Wait until I bring out the physics, the calculus and the German. Smile
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Tom Fenton
View Profile
Inner circle
Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish)
1468 Posts

Profile of Tom Fenton
What, no Attic Greek?
"But there isn't a door"
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
No, just basement German.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
cupsandballsmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
2706 Posts

Profile of cupsandballsmagic
I'll chuck in some 4 lettered Anglo Saxon then!
Tom Fenton
View Profile
Inner circle
Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish)
1468 Posts

Profile of Tom Fenton
Kellar Deutch it is then.
"But there isn't a door"
J.G. the magnificent
View Profile
Special user
Griffith Indiana
885 Posts

Profile of J.G. the magnificent
I have a routine in progress that people enjoy using things other than balls that are signed. I will say no more though because I don't want to give my routine away. All my other unique cups and balls routines are either taken or impractical.
Jeremy Gates
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24256 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
That's the rub when you are dealing with a trick that is as old as the cups and balls. Just about the time you develop something that is brand new, someone points it out in an 18th century text.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
panlives
View Profile
Inner circle
2087 Posts

Profile of panlives
Quote:
On 2010-07-15 16:36, Bill Palmer wrote:
That's the rub when you are dealing with a trick that is as old as the cups and balls. Just about the time you develop something that is brand new, someone points it out in an 18th century text.


Bill,
This almost begs the question:
Are there any “recent” routines that are new, without a known precursor, not derivative in any way?
Topic for another thread, perhaps?
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
kentfgunn
View Profile
Inner circle
Merritt Island FL
1639 Posts

Profile of kentfgunn
Quote:
On 2010-07-15 14:10, J.G. the magnificent wrote:
I have a routine in progress that people enjoy using things other than balls that are signed. I will say no more though because I don't want to give my routine away. All my other unique cups and balls routines are either taken or impractical.


J.G.

Oh magnificent one. We wait with bated breath to see what revelations on this time-honored trick you care to share with us.

What on earth do you mean when you say all your unique cups and balls routine are taken? Have you sold them to other performers?

If a routine is impractical, why crow about it?

Anyway . . .

Someone asked about Multi-Colored Ball routines.

Routines I know of are:

Colombini's Mamma Mia Cups and Balls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYXt-u3MAA

Leo Leslie's Technicolor Cups and Balls -
http://www.wildcolombini.com/cart/produc......b49d26e7

Travis Coopers has a routine in print. (Thanks Byron!)

Scotty York's X-Rated Cups and balls has a Multi-colored ball version.

Lawrence O also has a routine, I think it's on some tapes put out by Stevens.

That's all the multi-color routines I can think of off the top of my head.

KG
Richard Evans
View Profile
Inner circle
1377 Posts

Profile of Richard Evans
I just remembered that there's a very nice multi-colour ball routine on the cups & balls DVD that's sold by Christian Jedinat in Germany.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » "Marked" balls? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.3 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL