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Bill Palmer
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Etienne­- I don't disagree with you completely. My feeling is that ALLL of this is part of misdirection.

If you have to think about ANY of it when you are doing it, then you won't be successful at doing it.

Each of these aspects is simply part of the whole picture.

It's almost like that elusive aspect of comedy called "timing." Creat comedians seem to have it naturally. Some, in fact most, say that timing cannot be taught. But once a person recognizes one or more aspects of timing, then it is possible to improve whatever native ability toward timing that they may have had.

This is also true of misdirection. Any time a person thinks that misdirection is simply distracting someone by yelling "FIRE!" then they certainly don't understand what it is.

When you get down to the real basics, the silent script, the posture, the breathing, the gaze are all important.
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augiemagic
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Lawrence- I wasn't stating that I believe The Paper Balls to be the original source of Crossing/Double-Crossing the Gaze, just that Tamariz himself credits Slydini as the direct predecessor in the genesis of the technique.

Having said that, thank you for pointing me in a good direction to further my studies!

Where would I find more on Ramsay? Are the Galloway books informative?
Lawrence O
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... and this is why practice, for necessary that it is, cannot replace rehearsing.

Thanks for adding the notion of timing and pauses which, with scripting and acting are the artistic parts of misdirection: in that area Slydini and René Lavand are outstanding guiding lights.
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Lawrence O
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Andrew Galloway's books are indeed the best sources that you may want to seek. The Victor Farelli booklets are also a great source, Pabular has some interesting writings and photographs about John Ramsay and Pete Biro also re-edited the Ramsay C&Bs routine. John Carney on Ramsay is a great DVD and the DVDs on John Ramsay's magic are an eye candy.

Now apart from the theory on the gaze management which is well explained in the article on misdirection by John Ramsay, you have to go through the trick and see how Ramsay applied it on a systematical basis.
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funsway
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I may never get another chance to "disagree" with both Etienne and Bill at the same time ;-), i.e. I do not completely agree with either view presented. To draw a direct casual relationship between "magic as the reason" and "misdirection" is too limiting if presented as exclusive. There are many factors that may prompt "magic" in the mind of a spectator and only a couple are under our control. Yes, Misdirection and its mentioned nuances will certainly lead to "magic as the reason" more impactfully than a demosntration of "skill or artiface," but the story the spectator will tell later is more critical to supporting magic as art.

The residual and sustaining sense of awe and wonder filed away as "magic" in the spectator's mind may a cumulative from a well crafted routine rather than any single cause. In fact, too much "dilemma" in a single dose may restrict rather than enhance any "sense of magic"

So, you are both correct in "value" but wrong in "flavor" perhaps -- only a problem because so many magicians want fast food instead of a gourmet meal.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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augiemagic
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Seriously?

The three of you aren't allowed to disagree. My brain can't cope.

:)
Lawrence O
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As Ken underlines, our magic converge in the same sense, possibly with various scents.

Just may two cents.
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Bill Palmer
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Since you put it that way....
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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panlives
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Quote:
On 2010-07-06 19:40, Bill Palmer wrote:
Etienne­- I don't disagree with you completely. My feeling is that ALLL of this is part of misdirection.

If you have to think about ANY of it when you are doing it, then you won't be successful at doing it.

Each of these aspects is simply part of the whole picture.

It's almost like that elusive aspect of comedy called "timing." Creat comedians seem to have it naturally. Some, in fact most, say that timing cannot be taught. But once a person recognizes one or more aspects of timing, then it is possible to improve whatever native ability toward timing that they may have had.

This is also true of misdirection. Any time a person thinks that misdirection is simply distracting someone by yelling "FIRE!" then they certainly don't understand what it is.

When you get down to the real basics, the silent script, the posture, the breathing, the gaze are all important.


Does Tamariz's "Five Points in Magic" cover these latter items you mention - "... the silent script, the posture, the breathing, the gaze..."

Also, which books do you think are essential for studying the verbal (wordplay) aspect of misdirection?
with thanks,
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bishthemagish
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If I remember right there are some great performing tips on misdirection in Eugene Burger's first book that I think was published by Magic Inc. But I can't remember the name of the book.

I hope this helps.
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Lawrence O
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Quote:
On 2010-07-08 17:21, panlives wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-07-06 19:40, Bill Palmer wrote:
Etienne­- I don't disagree with you completely. My feeling is that ALLL of this is part of misdirection.

If you have to think about ANY of it when you are doing it, then you won't be successful at doing it.

Each of these aspects is simply part of the whole picture.

It's almost like that elusive aspect of comedy called "timing." Creat comedians seem to have it naturally. Some, in fact most, say that timing cannot be taught. But once a person recognizes one or more aspects of timing, then it is possible to improve whatever native ability toward timing that they may have had.

This is also true of misdirection. Any time a person thinks that misdirection is simply distracting someone by yelling "FIRE!" then they certainly don't understand what it is.

When you get down to the real basics, the silent script, the posture, the breathing, the gaze are all important.


Does Tamariz's "Five Points in Magic" cover these latter items you mention - "... the silent script,..."

Also, which books do you think are essential for studying the verbal (wordplay) aspect of misdirection?
with thanks,


Tony Slydini is the one who covered the posture, the breathing, the gaze in the most practical way and Karl Fulves "The Magic of Slydini... and More" offers the best description and practical advice IMHO

Tommy Wonder is the richest writer on the subject of silent scripts

I find that the verbal misdirection is essential: it tells the audience what the magic effect is (and it's surprising how erratic this can otherwise be). I try an chisel my scripts more and more over the years with a few small windows open for controlled dialog. This need is demonstrated in a very obvious way (but without a systematic methodology) by Derren Brown and in a different way by Ron Bauer's exceptionally good (an inexpensive) leaflet series. Eugene Burger and Robert Neale's books are inspirational but not methodical. One of the best book on the topic, Scripting Magic by Pete McCabe, unfortunately doesn't fully fills up the gap for it is not projecting into the evolution which already started in proper magic scripting. The proper use of metaphors, snappy distorted proverbs, pertinent re-adapted famous quotes to avoid being descriptive (I put it under here, It travels over there...) is an extremely difficult art but it's more than worth it

In another thread I indicated a few books on emotional screen writing ("writing for emotional impact by Karl Iglesias and Save the cat by Blake Snyder) which serve the purpose better IMHO than what I have found in our community
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
BeThePlunk
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What a powerful and mind-bending discussion! I realize that I'm arriving 3 years after you all wrote, but thank you. A great introduction to the topic... to the depth of the topic. I think I have a long, exciting journey ahead.
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