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Stefmagic Special user 529 Posts 
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I just make a little visit to Michael Ammar web site and I realised that his store was not protected by secret password to avoid access to lay people.
The fact is the Michael Ammar performed on TV and a lot of people google his name on the internet. We always cry out loud that there is too much exposure about Magic but what about a popular magician (Ammar for exemple)letting anybody see what he's selling on his magic store ? What's your opinion about unprotected store of popular magician ? |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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My opinion? Not unintentional... as I see it, it is open season... $$$
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Seriously? The last brick & mortar magic shop that I've visited that had a protected "Magician's Only" section closed in the late 70's. For that matter, I've never seen a single magic retail website that requires a password. Why should Michael's site be any different?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Donal Chayce Inner circle 1770 Posts
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Quote:
I've never seen a single magic retail website that requires a password. Why should Michael's site be any different? I have, in fact, come across a handful of retail websites that require a password to enter; e.g., you have to correctly answer one or two basic questions about magic history. (Offered with no intent of staking a claim in this debate.) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Got it. Since a lot of people do it all is good. Wow.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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I'm not saying it's right, Danny; just today's norm. I very much preferred the days of shops like Earl Edwards' in Norfolk or U.F. Grant's in Columbus. You had to prove some level of skill in magic before being allowed access to the inner sanctum. It simply isn't that way any longer and that genii will never go back into the bottle. Does this really have to degrade into a chest-thumping session? You know I'm not one of these "in your face" posters.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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Much ado about nothing. The "protected" sites I see stop long enough to ask you what The Professor's last name was. I guess that keeps out people who don't have 2 free seconds or access to Google, but seriously, what's the difference?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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I don't think that the "protection" is of any use in the least. Magic shops for as long as I have seen them in living color don't care about anything except if you can pay the bill.
The idea that "secrets" exist is just laughable anyhow if you ask me in the first place. I just hate when there are differing standards for who can and can not sell which secrets and to whom. Once it is ok to sell a "secret" first of all we should call it something else for it is no longer a secret now is it? Second of all nobody gives a hoot about selling secrets, but give them away and now we have problems. Skip, I just want to get past the stpuid justifications.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts
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So, why is there so much hate for the Masked Magician? He isn't doing anything different. It's all about making money, and apparently the Masked Magician is doing just that. His shows must be somewhat popular because magicians keep talking about his t.v specials, and FOX keeps making them.
I agree there is a huge double standard in the magic industry. The art of magic is becoming more and more about greed than protecting it.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Stefmagic Special user 529 Posts
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I don't talked about Magic shop that lay people could find anywhere if they have interest in Magic. What I'm talking about is a magician that performed on tv. Many people will google Michael Ammar on the web to learn more about him and vlam! they find the store section!
And other comment... Magician produced DVD for magicians and want their secrets to be keep among the magic community (sold to magicians) but in other hand, magic shop owners have to pay the bills and will try to sell DVD to anybody who can pay for it. That mean unprotected web site, selling item on ebay, etc. Isn't ironic at some point ? So magicians, who produced DVD for financial reason (gain money), are somehow responsible for their lost! If not, they'll sold DVD and books underground like it was some years ago. Open market mean more money for everybody but it means also more exposure to lay people. Richard Osterlind wrote a post about pirating DVD but by producing so much DVD, mr Osterlind make a lot of money (the reason he produced them) but also open himself to exposure and pirating! If you don't want so much pirating, you only produced limited DVD and you sell them underground. that way, you limited the risk. |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Magic is a business. In order to survive as a magician, one needs multiple income streams; show fees alone simply aren't going to do it for most of us. For some this means a "day job" or a working spouse. For others it's product sales, authoring books and DVDs, podcasts, blogs, lecture tours and so on. As in any business, you do what you must to pay the bills.
Purists consider the Tarbell Magic Course as the ultimate exposure. No less a pro than Houdini originally considered creating the public course but handed it to Dr. Tarbell due to other commitments. The mail-order lessons were available to anyone with a dime to spare through advertisements placed in popular dime novels and police gazettes. Houdini, Blackstone, Thurston, Gibson and others all created and sold magic books and effects to the lay public. Houdini built a career on publicly exposing magic techniques used by charlatans and crooks to bilk people. No password or secret handshake required - and this was nearly 100 years ago. Why should we expect such measures today? In Tarbell's own words, ""There is a big difference between a magician and a man who does tricks...Fundamentally, the making of a magician is no different than the making of other professional people. One must be trained in the mechanics, the alternate methods and be skilled in the presentation in order to meet any conditions which may arise." Knowing the "secret" does not diminish the art behind the magic or the skills of the true magician. Exposure is hugely overrated; but that's been debated to death and back already.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 09:27, Skip Way wrote: No. Magic is magic. There is at present a business of selling the means to do tricks as a commodity and using the term 'secret' as a crude sort of branding. I suspect that very few who play with and/or perform tricks also study, much less believe in, magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Why are fees not enough again? Skip I am not trying to be confrontational but indeed magic fees should be enough.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 09:44, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I don't know their minds, but I suspect that the Copperfields, Burtons and Tellers, to name a few, would disagree with you, Jonathan. Magic as entertainment and a commodity is a business and a very lucrative one for those who can make it work. I do agree with you and Dr. Tarbell that very few of those who dabble in tricks ever develop into magicians. They play a bit then move on to some new shiny experience. Respectfully, so what? What about those relatively rare few who received a magic set, bought a magic book or learned a routine from YouTube who went on to become true masters - or at least serious enthusiasts. Quote:
On 2010-06-19 10:07, Dannydoyle wrote: I appreciate that, Danny. I've learned a great deal about myself from our early discussions...and guys like you and Jonathan have influenced more than a few of my opinions. Maybe these fees are sufficient for someone with a steady list of clients in a lucrative market, but one can sometimes double or triple those fees with back-of-room and outside sales. I suppose it depends on one's goals and obligations. Dr. Tarbell, Blackstone, Mark Wilson and Walter Gibson certainly didn't need the money when they penned their magic courses for laypersons. They didn't require proof of intent, an oath of secrecy or prior magic knowledge to purchase their tomes. They made a business decision based on a clearly defined demand. My first magic book at the age of 10 was Walter Gibson's 188pg hardcover Magic Explained which sold for thirty-five cents. That book started me on an incredible journey that has yet to end. If I had required a password or prior approval to purchase this and future books, I would probably have missed out on many wonderful experiences. So I ask you and Jonathan: Do we condemn these men as exposers or thank them for opening the doors that many of us walked through? If we owe them our thanks, then why should we look askew at a modern master like Michael Ammar for following their lead?
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Stefmagic Special user 529 Posts
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Magician that need others income sources are NOT the one that authored books or DVD. Do you think Michael Ammar for exemple needs this to live ? Do you think Richard Osterlind needs this to pay his bills? I don't think so. The magicians and mentalists that published books and DVD are those who make a confortable living with their shows (corporate and private) and/or lecture tour.
Magicians make magic a business because they always want more and more money. It's the same about corporation that cuts jobs to save money to be able to give more profits to shareholders. The magicians that fees are not enough are not the one publishing material! Those that published materials (book and DVD) are wealth and doesn't need it to make a good living. But, they are the first to cry out loud about exposure and pirating! It's ironic... The exemple to follow about selling magic is Jerome Finley. Yes, his books are pricey but that way, he only sold his material to serious performer. He material is mostly kept underground and he want to know about the buyer before accepting selling something (he do that for Taboo treatise for exemple). |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-06-19 10:51, Stefmagic wrote: As I said... Quote:
Dr. Tarbell, Blackstone, Mark Wilson and Walter Gibson certainly didn't need the money when they penned their magic courses for laypersons. ... They made a business decision based on a clearly defined demand. Do you really think that when the likes of Robert-Houdin, Thurston, Houdini and Hermann became magicians fame and fortune wasn't their goal? Of course they wanted more. Why shouldn't they? Why shouldn't Michael? Why shouldn't I? I don't understand this aversion to profit and living the best life one can given the skills one develops...which is at the heart of any entrepreneurial endeavor. Seriously, you make it sound like Michael is selling state secrets. We're talking entertainment here, not treason. Quote:
But, they are the first to cry out loud about exposure and pirating! It's ironic... They also have the inherent, ethical and legal right to publish their own creations and exchange them for monetary gain. If that right steps on your sensitivities as one who wants to keep the "secrets" of magic confined to a chosen few...respectfully, there really isn't much you can do short of boycotting his efforts. They also have the ethical and legal right to protest the theft of that creation without just compensation. As stated earlier in this tread - Much ado about nothing.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Stefmagic Special user 529 Posts
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Quote: Please, Stop talking about Houdin,Blackstone, Thurston, Houdini, etc... We are in the 2000s now. I don't care what happen 50 years ago. Internet wasn't there at this time. Today, we're facing a different challenge about exposure and pirating. If we close our eyes on it, imagine what it'll become in 10 years ? 20 years ago, I was astonished about David Copperfield illusions and dreamed about it. today, 10 years old boy can google Copperfield illusion on the web and find instantly all the secrets about his illusions. The world around us changed and we need as a community to change too. Internet give more access to exposure and pirating and as a community, we need to stop publishing tons of materials like never before. We must go more underground again but instead of doing this, we produced more and more materials... Magicians are killing their own secret art! Magic was always a secret and well guarded art...not today anymore because nobody care about it. all that count is to get more money in our pocket!
On 2010-06-19 11:00, Skip Way wrote: What I started about Michael Ammar is that a known magician like him that done tv show, should have his magic store protected because thousands of lay people will search about him on the web and as a magician, you should at least, try to avoid lay people find your magic materials that you are selling. Lay people saw Michael Ammar on tv and they go to his personal web site to know more about him, maybe trying to hire him and you have his magic store with all his secrets tricks just one click to the side of his contact information??? you think it's ok ? Exposure begin here... For me, that doesn't make sense. I always saw professional performer like Paul Brook, Jerome Finley, Patrick Redford, etc. have password protected page for their materials. ***sorry about the writing, english is not my language |
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Servante Inner circle 1330 Posts
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Magic is a craft.
It may be elevated and become art. When money is collected with profit in mind, it becomes business. When an audience is charged money to observe it, it becomes show business. Show business is two-thirds business, one-third show. -Philip |
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Skip Way Inner circle 3771 Posts
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Paul Brook, Jerome Finley, Patrick Redford and Michael Ammar are the modern day equivalent of Robert-Houdin, Thurston, Houdini and Hermann. It's a viable comparison. Michael appears on television and sells his creations on an unprotected website. Blackstone appeared in the greatest theaters of his time and sold his in the lobby. The point is, the "secrets" of magic have been sold to the lay public by top name performers since the beginning. It is nothing new and it is exclusively Michael's decision whether or not to password protect his webstore.
As I said, the argument against exposure is moot. With YouTube, Google and the vast wealth of CD's, DVD's, books, magazines and catalogs available to the general public today, this quest to reel in exposure is meaningless. The cows are long, long gone! Just to be clear - I'm not happy about that fact. I would happily return to those days when magic skills were guarded among peers, masters and apprentices. If every true magician made and kept an oath today to guard all current and future secrets and to share them only within a protected brotherhood, it would change nothing. Practically everything there is to know about magic is already out there for those willing to search for it and put two and two together. Why continue to beat this poor bag of bones that used to be a horse any further? Regardless, I respect your opinion and honor your dream. I hope we can simply agree to disagree.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.
Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21263 Posts
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Magicians started a slow throat slit when they took cuts in fee to sell back of room crap. I guess this is where it leads.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Posted: Jun 18, 2010 05:59 pm 
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