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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To tell me the five names that I would be randomly thinking of (though not paul brook x5)...
but I already kinda believe anyways...
I've asked to be banned
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dmoses Inner circle 2261 Posts |
Prophecy, I think.
awesome prophecy could conceivably make a believer out of me.
"You're a comedian. You wanna do mankind a service, tell funnier jokes."
TPR by Dave Moses and Iain Dunford T-shirts for Magicians and Mentalists |
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Edward Cutting New user I only have a measly 42 Posts |
Well Mr. Brooks,
Your question set me to pacing for a bit before answering. It is rather interesting. For me the answer comes down to that most important thing in any skeptic or scientist or philosopher: scientific literacy. For the moment, let us use wikipedia's definition as relatively simple starting point: scientific literacy is the knowledge and understanding of scientific concepts, processes, and reasoning required for personal decision making. Let's understand scientific literacy through an example. The world will supposedly end, some say, on December 21, 2012. The first question you should ask is, well, why? "Because the earth and the sun and the center of the galaxy will be in perfect alignment." (That's one of the three major arguments, at least.) The next question one would rationally put is: how often does this happen? Answer: Every December 21. It is amazing to me that this seemingly simple question, "How often does this happen?" is not asked more often. The reason for it? Because while a significant percent of the population believes themselves to be "intellectually forward thinking" very few of them are actually scientifically literate in such a way as to allow them to truly rationalize and reason their own decisions. Scientific literacy is, at least in my opinion, one of the most important skills a person needs to learn and practice throughout their life because it doesn't just apply to science. If you're ever been to a "science nerd" party, you can interact with the party-goers and ask them questions about music, about politics, about art, about literature and so on and they will give you an informed, thought out answer. They don't shy from Bhrams or Davis, Joyce or Shakespeare, van Gogh or Warhol. Go to an "artsy party" and start talking about new scientific discoveries or progresses, or synthetic cell replication or some other science related topic and the most common answer: "Oh, I was never good at science. Let's talk about art (or whatever)." How is this possible? The great polymaths of our common history were men and women who were well versed in many disciplines. Why? Because they were scientifically literate. Now to your question: What would it take to make me a believer? A lot, is the simple, uninformed answer. The more complex answer would take some form of the following: "In order for me to become a believer, the 'miracle worker' would have to pass the rigorous tests of a person whose scientific literacy is highly formed." There is a major problems with that answer, of course: how do you measure how formed someone's scientific literacy is? But taken in the general context of its self-enclosed meaning, granting that you now have a highly scientifically literate person constructing the test, depending on the results I would be inclined to believe. I am very much a reasoned empiricist and will believe properly deduced results. Can those results be wrong? Sure: given a different level of technology, our scientific understanding, our current knowledge benchmarks and other things, we could possibly arrive at different conclusions but let's not play regressive games of what if. Examples: -Someone can read my mind: can they do it naked in a dull black but well lit room? Oh no? Apparently they need me to write something down in order for me to focus more on it. Very well, I can write it down in a language that the 'miracle worker' doesn't know. -Someone can predict the future: can they do it naked in a dull black but well lit room? They need to write it down on a piece of paper: do so and then let me read it before the event happens. The event won't happen if I read it before it happens: then allow >me< to seal the piece of paper, without looking at it, in my own box/envelope that I will hold on to and I will myself open and I will myself remove the paper from to read once the event has happened. Of course the event cannot be some mundane thing. "A man will pass by," written in a coffee shop does not pass for a prediction. "A man wearing red with a distinctive cut jacket who is over 45+ years and is accompanied by a young blonde female (18-25) that looks sad will pass by," is better. You cannot be specific in description? Then predict a highly unique event. Of course, these predictions must be done in locations where everything is under the control of the scientist so that no "hired help" comes along to make the prediction true. Again, all I've done there is simply built upon the conditions that would allow me to believe in someone's genuine ability. As you can see, I've also given the supposed 'miracle worker' some leeway in case their talent manifests itself in a strange way (ie, they need you to write the word down on a card I order to focus more on it) but in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of cheating. Furthermore, this performance must be repeatable over and over and over with the same results 100% of the time. Again, all this has been structured by simply applying one's scientific literacy to the issue. Thirsting for a chilled cup of water, Edward Cutting |
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magus Special user Huntington Beach, Ca 669 Posts |
I had a friend (non magician) who told me that sometimes he had ESP.
One night at a friends house, he started tossing a coin and calling it. Correctly. Over and over. I asked him if I could flip the coin. he said yes. I tried hiding the coin before tossing it, surreptitously turning the coin over before tossing, etc. In over 35 throws he got it wrong two or three times. My answer would be- Repetition, under any variation of stated conditions, "almost" 100%.
crappy deium-
what a lousy day to be seized thaumometer- a device for measuring a magical field |
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brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
As someone who is interested in ACAAN and Pysch forces--it would require the following: Hand me a deck of cards, let me examine the cards. Let me shuffle the cards. Never let the cards leave my hands and allow me to select a card and number --- and have my card at my number---and then do it again.
Also, have him write down three cards---let me hold the paper (the paper does not leave my hands). I then select three cards mentally without any further discussion (none of the usual mumbo jumbo for a force)and he picked the correct cards---and then do it again. |
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Rocketeer Special user Westchester, NY 965 Posts |
I'm not sure what my own answer is but I have to tell you, I think this premise would have made a great Twilight Zone episode.
(Cue Rod Serling voice) "Two strangers, passing the wee hours of the morning in a coffee shop hardly anyone goes to anymore. Two strangers, one who is about to witness strange powers beyond any natural explanation. And one who claims to possess them. Two strangers who meet one cold lonely morning before dawn... in the Twilight Zone." Do do do.. Do do do...
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"
PM me for info. |
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 11:48, Lord Of The Horses wrote: It's because I don't consider all the coincidences people have to be a demonstration of true mind reading. Ten times would convince me. |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Magicfreak2,
I am not saying you are wrong or that there is something inherently wrong in your PERSONAL parameters, but I was replying to one question posed by Paul. And you just proved my point. Because each one of us set for themselves their own parameters and criteria – Therefore, you are bound to find people who would believe almost anything, then a good number of people which are in a more “gray” area (or sitting on the fence and watching) and, finally, the other side of the coin, people who won’t never believe nothing which is disproving what they presently know well (or they think they know well).
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 20:34, Lord Of The Horses wrote: I acknowledge your point of view, and I would definitely be able to believe in a paranormal human, in fact I have often written about what such a man would be like, however amidst such fraud he would have to be one hell of a clever fella. I can still remember back to when a friend of a maician friend of mine came by and we showed him some magic and mentalism, and then he mentioned a psychic performer that had recently been advertised at our college (we get a nice bunch of splendid mentalists). He billed himself as a psychic though. The effect he told us (psyhic writes prediction on business card which he holds, guy pulls out change and names amount, mentalist shows prediction), just screamed swami. While we didn't explain the swami gimmick, I personally ensure him that the man was a fraud. Yet he was convinced. XD That said, as a mentalist, the guy would have to name a word or even just a number that I thoght of. Even if he was just close (e.g. Bike instead of motorcycle etc), he would have to do it 10 times before I would believe he was truly psychic. Technically less would do, but 10 is a nice number I only say this because after hearing of all the nice intuitive coincidences here that people have (and that I myself have had), even far to often for mere chance, it would have to be more than just a one shot deal if the guy asked me to believe him. Better be safe than sorry. If he _couldn't_ pull it off more than thrice, it would be definite proof that he wasn't a true thought reader, but just a highly intuitive individual. |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 20:46, magicFreak2 wrote: I was agreeing with you, but you lost me here...
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 20:48, Lord Of The Horses wrote: Just concluding that if it wasn't repeatable, he's wasting his breath (in cruder terms). I do find it interesting however, how sometimes you just know that what you're doing will work. Not all the time, but sometimes you know it will, you get up the guts, and the risk was worth it. Reminds me of when was trying to teach a psychological card force to a young friend of mine. After I left, he tried it on another friend, messed up the whole force, and just named the force card (not giving himself room for outs), and hit big. Still boggles my mind. |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 20:58, magicFreak2 wrote: So young and so doubting Thomas!
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 21:11, Lord Of The Horses wrote: If I see reality or have anything verifiable, I'll believe. Anything else, sorry, I'm not the kind to follow a cult leader blindly to my death. |
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PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 21:38, magicFreak2 wrote: never say never: you are the kind who will follow a cult leader because you re too sure you won't and are too young to say never kid: |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Just because I have a skeptical nature does not mean I do not practice Magick...
BTW- this topic is gonna bring trolls out of the woodwork.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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magicFreak2 Inner circle 1220 Posts |
I have a feeling that PsiDroid would have much wisdom to impart to a poor gullible soul such as myself if only I COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT THE **** HE'S TRYING TO TELL ME...
(end caps) :) Love you PsiDroid! No Homo. (I always felt it was wrong to be mean to those with severe mental issues. And those who haven't yet come out of the closet.) |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Great question Paul. Each time I come up with an idea of something that would convince me I realise soon after that there is an effect in magic somewhere that achieves it. Anyway...
Creating hallucinations that more than one person verifies. Affecting random people at a distance, the person is chosen by another. Prediciting the actions of others. There are of course many ways of achieving all of the above. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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cpbartak Special user Mooresville, NC 941 Posts |
Someone with the ability to divine the exact coordinates of people of interest (e.g., Bin Laden) and/or historical artifacts that have been long lost (e.g., the grail) would turn me into a believer.
Some people hear voices.. Some see invisible people.. Others have no imagination whatsoever.
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Chris K Inner circle 2544 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-29 11:48, Lord Of The Horses wrote: Rare event but I have to disagree with Lord's assessment here. The fact is the world is ruled by probability. Many people in this very forum use them in many of their effects. Lord's "Shades of Mind" is a perfect example of an approach that could use probability as a method. Heck, I've hit two randomly thought of cards in a row (Seven of hearts, then two of clubs; which should be obvious to anybody with Psychological Subtleties or Wonder Words). In theory, that's a 1/52 * 1/52 or 1 in 2704 shot. But we know it isn't. Why a number of times? Because it proves it wasn't happenstance or coincidence. Why a certain number of times? To prove it's actually repeatable. Think of it this way, if you could name random cards, maybe you only have to name 5 or so. However, if you are calling heads or tails of a coin, I'd make you do it a lot more times to "prove" it. It's back to the old premise of the bigger the claim, the bigger the proof required. This is actually the very opposite of the "Truth is that SOME people WILL NEVER be convinced, no matter what" idea. I tell you, ahead of time, that if you do "X" seven times, then I will believe. Now, for me, what would make me believe? That's a very tough one. Briefly, they would have to do enough to disprove all of the evidence out there that conflicts with what they are claiming. This seems like a high hurdle but it isn't. It happens every day by people working in science, in engineering, in physics. There's a process. Sure, some people may still believe the world is flat (that dummy on the View comes to mind) but enough evidence has been offered to counter what our eyes tell us every day. It can happen, it does happen, it will happen, but it isn't easy and I guess I'm not easy either, in that sense. I'd probably figure it had more to do with advanced technology (or just "tricks") than magic. Remember, this is an old idea but one worth repeating, first the original, then my version: Clarke's 3rd Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Lem's Corollary: Anything accomplished by a method either unseen or unknown is indistinguishable from magic but that doesn't make it magic. With me, it's always the same thing, prove it. Put your money where your mouth is and I'll buy it. It's funny that is where all the psychics, readers, etc. fall down. Lem |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
If they could make a red silk hanky disappear into a closed fist I'd be convinced and join their church.
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