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AsL Special user 680 Posts |
Hey guys!
I'm looking to give my sister some advice on a little situation she's encountered at her job and I was curious on everybody's opinion here at the Café. I know this post is kind of long but if you have time, your opinion would be greatly appreciated. Personally, I believe her employer is wrong but you be the judge...I could be wrong... My sister has worked as a loyal employee for Dress Barn at the Opryland Mall (in Nashville) for many years until a couple of months ago when flooding closed the mall. When the flooding initially occurred, everybody at the store was given two options; apply for unemployment or work at various other stores (within the corporation around the city) until their store location reopened at Opryland. My sister has thoroughly enjoyed her job over the years and has managed to become an Assistant Manager at the store so she decided to agree to work at other store locations around the city until her location reopened. As she expected, she was sent to another store location in Smyrna, TN and has happily been working there every since. Since working there, she has spoken with her District Manager numerous times and has been assured by her that she would definitely be given her same position back when the Opryland location reopened. Well, yesterday my sister was informed that all management positions at the Opryland location would be getting laid off as of July,17th. She was also informed that her Opryland location would be reopening in January AND all regular associates (nonmanagement) would be retained at other store locations. In addition, they were also informed that if they wanted their positions back, they would have to reapply. Please let me know if I'm poorly mistaken but isn't it illegal (or at least wrong) to terminate somebody if they've been promised there position back when the original store reopened? Also, laying off management and keeping the basic associates seems a little wrong to me since my sister has more seniority and experience than most of the other employees. So....what's your opinion? I wouldn't be so irritated with this if my sister would've been given the opportunity to voluntarily get demoted to a basic employee until her store location reopened and then promoted back to her original position when the Opryland location reopened. Also, if my sister would've known that Dress Barn was going to go back on their word then she would've accepted initially accepted unemployment since Dress Barn was offering a "free" bonus check. I never fully understood the irritation associated with getting laid off but now it's clearly apparent to me. I know many other members around the Café have dealt with similar situations and I just wanted to get everybody's opinion. Any and all opinions are welcome. All the Best, Andrew |
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AsL Special user 680 Posts |
By the way, I've advised her to ask a lawyer about it but I was just curious about other opinions....
All the Best, Andrew |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
As an attorney, I've seen a great deal of misinformation in various non-legal forums including the Café. Some of that misinformation consists of information that is simply wrong, and some of it consists of a professed degree of certainty about areas that aren't nearly as clear as the person who posted seems to think they are. Please don't put much stock in any of the responses you see here; the fact of the matter is, employment law varies a great deal from state to state, and particular cases vary a great deal and potentially result in widely disparate results even given the same state. The only person qualified to address this matter is a Tennessee employment law practitioner, and an ethical and good one wouldn't offer an opinion without doing a detailed intake and asking many, many questions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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AsL Special user 680 Posts |
Thanks for the info. I completely agree. I wouldn't take most legal responses to seriously without researching them first but I will definitely appreciate personal opinions on the matter. Once again, thanks for that info.
All the Best, Andrew |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-06-30 12:15, LobowolfXXX wrote: Oh sure, be the enemy of the internet. All you have to do is post a link to be right.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
The OP didn't just ask if this was illegal, but "at least wrong".
Your sister acted in good faith. Dress Barn did not. But in the business world sometimes promises are made that cannot be reasonably kept. (This is also true in the political world, obviously, but let's not go there.) I'm not saying that it isn't unethical, mind you; I'm just saying that it happens. Often it happens because people making the decisions a month ago are no longer the ones making decisions today. It also happens that the "promises" made are not economically viable. It could even happen that the "promises" made were technically illegal, which is why only a lawyer could really sort this out for your sister. I wish your sister the best, and I hope that eventually she will be honored for her loyalty to the company and be given the job that she was promised. |
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Josh Chaikin Inner circle Kansas City 1430 Posts |
Lobowolf hit the nail on the head, employment law is a tricky beast and have only taken one course in it (related to Kansas and at the undergraduate level). Since you want opinions, I'll give you mine (which should be taken with a grain of salt - I am not a licensed practitioner of law, nor do I reside in Tennessee).
Tennessee is a right to work state which states, in its simplest terms, that someone can be terminated at any time without reason (basically the corollary of a union). Secondly, management was "assured" that they would be able to go back to their original positions when the store reopened. Well, unless something was put in writing, this has little merit - forget what you've heard about verbal agreements, they carry virtually no weight in court. A number of years ago, while in college, I was a seasonal employee at Eddie Bauer, I was told that after the season, I would have the option to come on as a seasonal employee, that didn't materialize after the New Year. At Walmart, I was told I would be able to move into a management position when one opened up, same thing. Granted these scenarios are not the same as yours because, at the end of the day, I still had a job (with the exception of Eddie Bauer, though "seasonal" tends to indicate a temporary arrangement anyway), the point is, things change. Dress Barn may have had things happen at higher levels than you're aware of, forcing them to change their decision, or they may have decided that they could save money by terminating their current managers and rehiring them, or others, at a lower pay-grade. Is this unethical? Certainly. In a perfect world, loyalty would be rewarded and promises kept. Is this illegal? Probably not. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I agree it is wrong, but probably not illegal.
Much depends on who made the decision. If indeed it was a company decision then most likely they got the ok from the human resource department and it is legal. (Or at least their legal team thinks it is.) There is a better chance of it being illegal if the decision was made by a single local manager. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Unfortunately your sister was a loyal employee. Dress Barn was not a loyal employer. Few are, especially in retail where generally employees are looked upon as an all too easily replaced commodity.
Tell your sister it's time to move on and find another place of employment. It doesn't sound as if her old job is really worth a long drawn out and very expensive court fight. besides would you really want to work for a company you had to sue to let you work there?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Did she have the promise in writing? A verbal contract's worth the paper it's printed on.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I would agree she wasn't fairly treated. But in the business world all isn't fair in love and war. Since she was in management that's one strike against her since they can more than likely find someone to take her place and for much less money. When the economy is bad the higher paid employees often get heaved out the door first. Be they management or employees that have been there longer than most and are making more money due to that fact. When it comes money there really isn't any such than as employer loyalty. It's there bottom line they are looking at nothing else. You could be the best employee in the world. If your making the amount of money that would be better in their pocket than in yours in tough times like this. Then you are surely going to be let go.
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Ever heard the expression SOL? That is what your sister is. They have a right to let her go just like she has the right to quit. She also has the right to reapply. I can tell you the name of major companies, including my own, that have told employees that there would not be a lay off on the day of a lay off, once while people were being lead out to be laid off through the meeting where they were saying there was no lay off planned. I also had management tell us that the company was not sold or even being considered to be sold while the signs were being changed in front to the new name! I've seen people leave a job to take another one and get laid off that same week. Unless she was singled out for race or something like that, and she wasn't, then it is tough banana's and welcome to our world...the world of the unemployed.
Just to let you know it goes the opposite way as well. Some people have temp jobs that turn into life long careers. I worked for the same company over 23 years when they closed down the facility and terminated everyone...some there a lot longer than me, some a few months. On the bright side if she goes without a stink and stays in touch she may get a job when one opens up. Lastly, everyone laid off is wrongly laid off. Laid off just means fired for no reason at all, even if made up. |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Here's to no guarantees.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Cheers!
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
I say good for her.
The Company doesn't deserve her I say. Does she really want to work for people who don't hold their word, especially with people's livelihood at stake. In this economy? I say good for her. Now she can find better people to work for. Or work for herself. Or help you doing Magic. Good for her. All the best!
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
You can't blame them. Most of the time, not always, people are not given any hint that a lay off is coming. I can see the point, the store isn't going to open for half a year, what are you going to do? Stick managers in other stores where there will be conflict with other managers and power plays? While it sucks they did nothing illegal and I'm sure they would have prefered not to have to do what they need to do.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I'm actually with Santa on this one. People quit their jobs all the times, and nobody suggests that the employer, who may expect (or have been explicitly told) that the employee would continue to work there, and may have acted on that assumption, has any sort of legal recourse against the employee who walks off the job, or doesn't come back the next day.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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AsL Special user 680 Posts |
Thanks for all of the responses everybody! Special thanks to stoneunhinged for emphasizing the "at least wrong" part I was definitely expecting the wide range of responses I have received and once again, they are all greatly appreciated.
HERE'S AN UPDATE: My sister has since spoken with an equal employment lawyer :-(i can't remember the technical title:-( and a lot of things have been unveiled that wasn't previously known. Without saying too much right now (because I'm still learning the details myself), I do know that the only people laid off were ALL of the minorities and it appears that the ultimate decision was made by the district manager (who made the promises to everybody). If I were a betting person, I'd bet that the EEOC (equal employment opportunity commission) will be getting involved soon. For those of you who mentioned that my sister would probably be better off working somewhere else - I COMPLETELY agree. My biggest concern (and my sister's) would be this district manager treating others in a similar fashion as my sister. Some people aren't as fortunate as my sister (as far as opportunities elsewhere) and I think it'd be ashame if this situation went unnoticed. At this point my sister is not fighting for herself-she's "fighting" for her peers who've been treated unjustly as herself. Any more opinions? Thoughts? Although I may not necessarily agree with all of the responses, everybody has helped me understand the other side's perspective which I appreciate. Also- thanks for your reponse MagicSanta! I was HIGHLY curious about what your opinion was going to be since I know you've been through some unfortunate job circumstances yourself;-) |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
It happens too often. Just realize managers don't have to tip peple to lay offs and can say what they want to keep people working. Most lay offs come as complete surprises.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
From the initial post, all of the management personnel and only the management personnel were laid off; from the most recent post the only people laid off were all of the minorities. I'm not sure if that means racial, or both racial and gender, but it does sound as if the white male employees would have a great anti-discrimination case, as apparently they were the only ones who weren't in management positions. A civil rights attorney may be able to help. A class action or possibility criminal liability for a hate crime may be in order, too. You'd think they'd at least keep one minority in a non-management position, or promote one white guy, just to not risk liability, but you really never know what people are thinking sometime.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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