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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Intentional Miss = Good (Are You Kidding Me?) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kambiz
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The greatest "miss" of all time is presented in Jerome Finley's TT2 effect in his PC manuscript....Rome you are a fool for letting that one go!!

To sum up, there is a BIG difference between a "mental magician" and a "mentalist"

Magicians present a mysterious puzzle that all will want to figure out, missing is not an option.

Mentalists do it for "real" or so they want to be perceived and if you just for one second imagine that you could really, REALLY do it for real, then you would be missing, and quite often

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
ROBERT BLAKE
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Mentalism = experiments (uncertainty of the outcome)

magic = tricks
praetoritevong
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Quote:
On 2010-07-13 05:05, Jay Jennings wrote:
I guess I just don't get why a "real" mentalist wouldn't/shouldn't/couldn't be perfect.

It's quite possible I don't have enough experience (either as a performer or a spectator) in mentalism to see it at this point, but thanks to everyone for the comments.

Jay Jennings


Another answer would simply be that psychology, to take a popular premise of mentalism, is not 100%, as any real scientist and/or common sense should tell you. Of course not everyone acts in exactly the same way, or there wouldn't be progress, for one.

The other category of misses not addressed by Bob in his excellent post, but mentioned above, is when the effect is worth the risk of failing - which is a personal decision.
OnTiltSoon
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Quote:
On 2010-07-13 05:05, Jay Jennings wrote:

I guess I just don't get why a "real" mentalist wouldn't/shouldn't/couldn't be perfect.

It's quite possible I don't have enough experience (either as a performer or a spectator) in mentalism to see it at this point, but thanks to everyone for the comments.

Jay Jennings


Why should he be perfect? I see the mentalist as a human being with extra habilites, reading people's thoughts. Not like a Demigod that can't go wrong.

Missing makes you more human, being more human makes you more belivable. And adds drama to your act...

Just my thoughts...
- Joaquín Gasa Thomas
C.J.
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I think it's all been covered here, but for a concrete example, consider the simple One-Ahead principle. Strike 100% with that and you'd be booed off the stage, because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what you did. Play the Carol/Karen confusion, or better yet the Michael/Mikey confusion (and do it well) and you've successfully misdirected the audience, made it seem real, and left people amazed, rather than trying to work out how you did it. And if you did Michael/Mikey, you might get the added bonue of having the participant's jaw drop as they say "That's what I called him when he was young! How did you know that?!" That payoff is better than a "direct hit".
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Be fondly remembered.
Mindpro
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Plus many of a mentalists abilities - hunches, perceptions, influence, intuition, predictions, visions, etc. are not 100% sciences or abilities, so neither should of of their attempted results.
OnTiltSoon
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Sorry for my english (habilities) it's not my native language Smile
- Joaquín Gasa Thomas
insight
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I have a question for this group: IF a REAL MENTALIST did exist, and he wanted to prove to you that he was for real, should he:
A) Predict your 6 digit number exactly correct (which he is capable of doing) OR
B) PURPOSEFULLY, miss a digit to enhance believability

Regards,
Mike
Dr Spektor
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He wouldn't be performing for you
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
insight
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Fair point, Dr spektor. What if he was being interviewed by neuroscientists?
seadog93
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I think that if you want to be perceived as real, or possibly real, you have to understand what it is that people who believe in real psychics believe.

For those (of us) who believe in real psychism and esp it's not fiction or superstition. From the skeptical point of view it's all phony anyways, so if we imagine it to be real it might as well be completely and totally real and 100% accurate. From a believers point of view there are predictable and understandable theories as to how psychism works, when it works and specifically why it does not work all the time.

I mentioned Uri Geller before and others mentioned John Edwards and others. These people present themselves as real and are believed to be, even though they have misses. There is a definite logic to psychic phenomenon and ESP and if you don't fit into it you most likely won't be percieved as real.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On 2010-07-13 13:24, insight wrote:
Fair point, Dr spektor. What if he was being interviewed by neuroscientists?


He (or she) would likely try not to demonstrate anything, or miss a lot so that the chance of being put in a military secret lab drops...

Now, if they blow it too much, and drop below what would be considered a normal level of failure... the hip scientists will surmise he or she is reading the mind and intentionally failing - and off to the brain dicer machine for further study.

Thus, it is better to miss enough within reason.

Now, if the scientists were threatening the lives of the loved ones of the psi person, he or she would probably try to get it all correct with no misses... but then, due to being stressed, can't employ their powers... and thus are eliminated with all witnesses.

Of course, if they do get it all right.... Randi calls up the scientists afterwards and tells them it was a hoax.

So, most real psychics become entertainers anyway because what else can they do if they don't want to be labotamized or turned into some military superweapon?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
insight
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Good points, seadog93. Thanks.

Regards,
Mike

Posted: Jul 13, 2010 2:08pm
Good thinking, Dr. Spektor too. Thanks.

Regards,
Mike
mastermindreader
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Quote:
Mike wrote:

I have a question for this group: IF a REAL MENTALIST did exist, and he wanted to prove to you that he was for real, should he:
A) Predict your 6 digit number exactly correct (which he is capable of doing) OR
B) PURPOSEFULLY, miss a digit to enhance believability


Respectfully, this misses the entire point. What we're saying is that a "real" psychic would NOT necessarily be capable of doing it every time.

Good thoughts,

Bob Cassidy
insight
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You're right, Bob. I had just made than an assumption in that particular scenario, realistic or not. Thanks.

Regards,
Mike
Hypno
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Hi Jay,

I think it might be worthwhile to look up the "Pratfall Effect" this is a psychological phenomenon whereby the attractiveness of a person perceived as competent increases if the person commits a blunder.
I hope this may at least provide food for thought.

Kind Regards.
Hypno.
insight
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Excellent reference, Hypno. And Jay, if you want to research it further, here is a good source: Aronson, E., Willerman, B. and Floyd, J. (1966) The effect of a pratfall on increasing interpersonal attractiveness, Psychonomic Science 4: 227-8.

Regards,
Mike
Jay Jennings
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Quote:
On 2010-07-13 14:10, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
Mike wrote:

I have a question for this group: IF a REAL MENTALIST did exist, and he wanted to prove to you that he was for real, should he:
A) Predict your 6 digit number exactly correct (which he is capable of doing) OR
B) PURPOSEFULLY, miss a digit to enhance believability


Respectfully, this misses the entire point. What we're saying is that a "real" psychic would NOT necessarily be capable of doing it every time.


Ah-ha! That may be it -- in my mind a "real" psychic WOULD be able to do it every time, which is why the idea of miss didn't make any sense to me. Perhaps my idea of a mentalist is too narrow.

Jay Jennings
insight
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"What we're saying is that a "real" psychic would NOT necessarily be capable of doing it every time"

Do we need the word NECESSARILY because that may also be contributing to the confusion between the two camps? The word necessarily implies that there is a point at which the two philosophies connect, and then when people believe that that there should be a 100% hit rate, their rationale can be supported by that point of intersection which could include those psychics that are right 100% of the time. I know it's just one word, but it carries with it a lot of implications. Thoughts?

Regards,
Mike
Hostile18
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If someone had fautless psychic abilities and they wanted to prove this then of course they would do so by being completely right in every test. They would be challenged by strangers to read their mind and they would do so immediately and without error.

Such a person has never existed and within reality as most people understand it they never will. Therefore I don't think it's productive or entertaining to try to present that character. It's not a plausible one, and therefore not engaging.

That's not to say that getting things dead right is a problem. But I think it needs to look difficult, or be framed intelligently. Another way of presenting an authentic and engaging character is through misses. Focusing on the process as well as the result. There are lots of different threads to weave.
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