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Nosher
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On 2010-08-02 15:27, tommy wrote:
Notes should be made contemporaneously.

This is defined as an accurate record, made at the time, or as soon after the event as practicable. It is a record of relevant evidence which is seen, heard or done, by the maker of the note.

Any cop will tell you that John.


*off topic*

If only certain magicians had this attitude to their notebooks, the true originators of certain card tricks would be (and would have been) a lot happier...
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
Dannydoyle
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On 2010-08-02 18:54, MagicSanta wrote:
Beware fanatics who pick and choose.

I officially give up on global warming. It is just a cottage industry.


Yea you know those religious fanatics who believe something SO much they are willing to lie, and like to act all superior and claim evidence where none exists and anyone who does not believe what they believe is an idiot and the standard of proof for others is much higher than it is for their side? Oh and then they want to DEMAND the rest of the world sees what they see, even though there is no real proof and the proof they have is corupted.

Oh wait that is how the scientific fanatics are acting. It is getting tough to tell the difference.

John, certainly when you submit an idea for peer review, and it is simply reviewed by those who have a vested interest in it being put forth as an idea, the peer review process is suspect at best, and corrupt at worst. It is somehwat akin to having to submit the spousal abuse standards to OJ Simpson and Mel Gibson for review. The process itself is corrupt, right down to the media who willingly promotes the idea for them. Naturally you never will admit this and maybe you can't even see it through your religious glasses but the public is starting to.

So lets step back and actually do SCIENCE for a while and lets see where that gets us. The only good thing about the recession is it has put things like cap and trade on the back burner for now.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Danny do you have one SCRAP of evidence that peer review is corrupted in climate science? You are making accusations but you are providing zero evidence.

And if what you say is true, how do contrary articles get accepted by major journals?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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John every time someone posts ANYTHING you and Payne and the true believers say "Oh they are bought and paid for by big oil". You act as if those who are on your side are in white robes and nto corupted by money of any sort. This is where your blindness is handy.

EVERY time we post anything about how the system is corrupted, you try to find some way to wiggle out of it. It is an old arguement, it is tiresome. You and the crowd will keep banging the drum till you get what you want. It works and people get worn down, but then something happens. People wake up and say to themselvs "I thought we only had 10 years, and that was 20 years ago". Maybe it is not as urgent as they are claiming.

You seem to think that badly collected evidence is really science. You defend it as "well it is only a small portion of scientists who do that" and yada yada yada. Well John if you add up all the little things, they certainly begin to add up.

Sorry but all religions lose their shine. Keep hitting the drum though John.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Danny, use the search engine. I have NEVER said that anybody was bought and paid for by big oil.

This is so typical of your posts. You make blanket accusations, but you refuse to ever come up with evidence.

No matter what you say, Danny, I look at evidence. I do my best to honestly evaluate it.

I expect a retraction, and (if you've got it in you) an apology.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Ok lets start here again John. Sorry and retracted. Seriously.

Now have you EVER attacked those who you disagree with? (Not ATTACKED as in demeaned, but attacked credentials, or said that they have an agenda of sorts)

Do you use tactics like this or not? While you claim to evaluate evidence, when you see evidence that completely contradicts your position you ignore and obviscate.

See John while you claim to "evaluate" you already think you know what the truth is. Turns out John that the truth is a hard thing to find, when you already know what that truth is supposed to be. So any "evaluation" you give it is tainted by an already deeply held belief. This does not make you (or for that matter ANYONE) the best arbiter of truth now does it?

Now that I think of it when scientists already have a conclusion, and of late they have a vested interest in the conclusion, it does not make for good science. If you were truly dedicated to TRUTH and SCIENCE as you claim, then this would be obvious.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Thank you Danny.

What amuses me about all this is that I have consistently maintained that I am not an expert in the science and that my judgments about the details of climate science are not very valuable.

What I have responded to are strong statements by a few people even less qualified than I am, who claim that all climate science is either a)wrong or b)corrupt. I continue to push for evidence for these strong claims. Invariably the evidence comes in three forms: links to irrelevant articles, links to unsubstantiated claims or flat assertions. And I call them on it.

I continue to champion peer-reviewed research. Unfortunately, most people have very wrong-headed notions of what this is. Peer-reviewed research is not iron-clad; you cannot assume that it is THE TRUTH. It has, however, met a standard of evidence and argumentation that establishes it as worthy of attention. If the questions were settled, the papers would not be published, as there would be nothing worthy of further study.

As imperfect as peer-review is, there is nothing better. It is rather like criminal courts: courts can give wrong verdicts, but they are far more trustworthy than anything else we can come up with.

Let me close with a relevant example of peer-review in action: the famous hockey-stick graph.

The graph first came to light in the 2001 IPCC report, which was put together by experts but was not peer-reviewed. Steve McIntyre (discussed earlier in the thread), a non-expert with some mathematical sophistication, re-analyzed the graph and found problems with the data. McIntyre did two things: first he submitted his critique to a peer-reviewed journal (with McKintrick as co-author); second he filled the internet with his views. His critique was published in the journal Energy and Environment. (It is worth noting that this is a social science policy journal, not a scientific journal. The peers reviewing McIntyre's work would be social scientists not mathematicians or climatologists.) Rutherford et. al. published a detailed rebuttal of McIntyre and McKintrick's article in the peer-reviewed climate science journal Journal of Climate. I suspect other articles have been written, but the point is clear: peer-review is a way to get meaningful, disciplined discussion happening. And for the umpteenth time, I do not have the expertise to adjudicate the debate about the hockey stick graph.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Payne
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This would all be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The deniers continually find themselves on the wrong side of the issues. They’ve been proven wrong time and time again. Yet every time a scientific issue is brought to the forefront they whine and moan and sing the same old song.
“The science is wrong”
“The Scientists are tainted”
“It’s not as bad as they say”
“It’s too expensive to fix”
“It will ruin the economy”
The corporatists were positive the EPA would be the end of life as we know it. There was no need to remove lead from paint and petrol as the science was shaky and the industry just couldn’t afford to do it. The same with CFS. Banning the use of these served little purpose and would all but destroy the refrigeration industry. Or so said Big Business. Cap and trade to help control the acid rain caused by emissions from coal fired plants in the north east was said to be certain doom for that industry as well. Odd, that never happened either.
So you can see why we question the evidence put forth by the deniers. They’ve simply been wrong each and ever time. They’re the proverbial “Boy who cried wolf”.
They also seem to rely on the same old tired tactics. With no substantiated evidence to support their claims they rely strictly on arguments from authority and hyperbole. Sadly too they’ve started to employ the same battle plan as the creationists. They find a single point of data they perceive as questionable and then try to discount the entire discipline as false.
They’ve tried and failed to do this with the US Weather Station Data, the Hacked E-mails and the Hockey Stick Graph. Each time they’ve failed to prove their case. So now all they are left with is whining and complaining that no one takes the evidence they don’t have seriously. Even resorting to the creationists mantra of calling anyone they perceive as being a “true believer” a follower whose been blinded by the religion of Darwin or in this case Global Warming.
We’ve given all of you deniers ample opportunity to prove your case and back up your claims with evidence. So far all we’ve heard is crickets. Well that and the same tired old “evidence” that has been roundly shown to be false, opinion or out right fraudulent.
Sorry to say all evidence is not equal. To be accepted as evidence it has to meet with certain criteria. Simply putting it into an op-ed or on a webpage does not make it true. As it has been said many times before, You are welcome to your own opinion; you are not welcome to your own facts.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Yea Payne wrong side of the issues. Turns out that Rachel Carson was right. Oh wait turns out she was wrong, and just a true believer and the science was on her side too huh? MILLIONS dead who didn't have to be. But that fits into the plan doesn't it?
Danny Doyle
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MagicSanta
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I bet that they won't burn the bodies because it could cause pollution I am figuring that they will bury us alive around trees then loop our heads off so our bodies fertalize the trees and our heads can be fed to crabs or made into drinking cups or something.
balducci
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On 2010-08-03 23:46, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea Payne wrong side of the issues. Turns out that Rachel Carson was right. Oh wait turns out she was wrong, and just a true believer and the science was on her side too huh? MILLIONS dead who didn't have to be. But that fits into the plan doesn't it?

FWIW ...

"Many critics repeatedly asserted that she was calling for the elimination of all pesticides. Yet Carson had made it clear she was not advocating the banning or complete withdrawal of helpful pesticides, but was instead encouraging responsible and carefully managed use with an awareness of the chemicals' impact on the entire ecosystem. In fact, she concludes her section on DDT in Silent Spring not by urging a total ban, but with advice for spraying as little as possible to limit the development of resistance."

"In the 2000s, critics have claimed that Carson is responsible for millions of malaria deaths, because of the DDT bans her work prompted. Biographer Mark Hamilton Lytle claims these estimates unrealistic, even assuming that Carson can be "blamed" for worldwide DDT policies, and John Quiggin and Tim Lambert have written that "the most striking feature of the claim against Carson is the ease with which it can be refuted." Carson never actually called for an outright ban on DDT."

Lytle 2007, pp. 217–220; Jeffrey K. Stine, "Natural Resources and Environmental Policy" in The Reagan Presidency: Pragmatic Conservatism and Its Legacies, edited by W. Elliott Browlee and Hugh Davis Graham. Lawrence, KS: University of Kansas Press, 2003. ISBN 0-7006-1268-8
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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Hogwash. Right where the rubber meets the road she is directly the cause of MILLIONS of African deaths. Simple as that. But at least she was on the right side of the issue huh?

Now we can play "lets pretend" some more. You are saying she never called for the ban? Ok. Lets pretend this is the truth. I am not certain but I take you at your word. Her "cause" was directly responsible for 1 death SHE WAS WRONG and the science was on her side! Even 1 is too many. For such a caring group it amazes me that you libs simply disregard human life so easily. Babies killed, disease spreads, no biggie.

Oh and it it is so "easily refuted" why isn't it? Well don't worry I am certain that the paper "refuting" it will be "peer reviwed" and accepted by all who don't care that she killed so many.

Personally if I am on the "wrong side" of that arguement, I am happy.

Naaa don't let things like a fact get in the way of true belief though. It can cause a headache.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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On 2010-08-04 00:25, Dannydoyle wrote:

Now we can play "lets pretend" some more. You are saying she never called for the ban? Ok. Lets pretend this is the truth. I am not certain but I take you at your word.

It's not MY word, it is the word of people who have examined her writings and public statements on the matter.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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On 2010-08-04 00:25, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh and it it is so "easily refuted" why isn't it?

Naaa don't let things like a fact get in the way of true belief though. It can cause a headache.

Where is it refuted? In the reference I gave you in my earlier message. Not to mention in her book, Silent Spring. She never called for a ban on DDTs there, she called for them to be used less (but NOT BANNED) in order to limit the development of resistance.

She wrote "Malaria programmes are threatened by resistance among mosquitoes" (p. 267) and emphasized the advice given by the director of Holland's Plant Protection Service: "Practical advice should be 'Spray as little as you possibly can' rather than 'Spray to the limit of your capacity'…Pressure on the pest population should always be as slight as possible." (p. 275)

(The excerpts above are taken off the web.)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Let's be honest, what are the odds that any of those people who died from maleria would have donated to the foundations fighting against global warming? No harm no foul, right fellas?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Evidence 1-0 Assertion
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Hard luck John. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-04 09:24, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Evidence 1-0 Assertion


High horse again huh? Arse you saying she never antwhere called for an outright ban on DDT? Is anyone making that contention? Seriously?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Here argue with Al Gore who says SPACIFICALLY that

"Today, because Carson's work led to the ban on DDT, some of the species that were her special concern- eagles and peregrine falcons, for example- are no longer at the edge of extinction. It may be that the human species, too, or at least countless human lives, will be saved because of the words she wrote."


http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OVP/24hours/carson.html

So which is it, did she get DDT banned or not? Oh wait she is a lib icon so when it is a good thing to point out, then she got it banned, when it is not convienent she didn't. I keep forgetting.

Hmmm John is that evidence? I suppose not huh? Got a snarky remark for that John?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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