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Magnus Eisengrim
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I've avoided following the money, but maybe I'll allow it this time. Did you know that Mr. Michaels' company New Hope Environmental received $122,100 from the Cato Institute in 2006 and $120,800 in 2007 (page 10 of each document).

Of course, he may or may not be providing ethical or sound opinion; I'm not sure.

What do you think, Tommy? Does Mr. Michaels have a financial interest in having the "right opinion"? How about you, Danny? Are Mr. Michaels' opinions free and open, or does the money talk? Just askin'

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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Oh look The Intermountain Rural Electric Association paid Patrick Michaels $100,000 to help them develop an information strategy to combat those scientists who support anthropogenic climate change.

But wait, there's more. The letter mentions a group CEI that "has been running two ads in ten states that were financed by General Motors and the Ford Motor Company. …. We have met with Koch [Industries], CEI and Dr. Michaels and they meet among themselves periodically to discuss their activities."

But I'm sure none of this has any influence on Patrick Michaels' conclusions.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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For you conspiracy buffs, follow Koch's trail...we now resume our regularly scheduled program.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-06 22:09, tommy wrote:
Why? Don't you like what he said?

Just askin'

PS

Seems like my learned friend John has deleated his last remark.


Sorry about that. I thought I'd give more content by following the money.

The original question was this: of the hundreds of people you could quote, why do you choose him? What about his opinion makes him worthy of this space and not someone else?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-06 19:42, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-06 19:23, Dannydoyle wrote:
Nobody applies to produce a conclusion? Do you really believe this?


I have applied for research grants, and I assure you that it is true. Have you applied for research grants?

John


What does this straw man have to do with anything John? You are losing steam. Oh and still obviously don't have it in you to appologize for insults and name calling huh?

For the record John, all that you can conclude from your application is why YOU apply for grants. You can make no general statement about why others do. I certainly hope that if you get your grant you use better methods than this. (Nice straw man you have constructed though.)

What if I had applied for grants John and did it only for the money? Would that make my point more or less valid? Come on use some of that great research brain power and tell me.

All you have done here is shown your bias and true believer status. In all seriousness I think it pulls into question your ability to do research once you already have made up your mind. You are either a fool or dishonest about your work.(Isn't acondecending attitude from a high horse fun?)

John I will tell you this and provide no real proof for it. In police work one of the things they warn about is not having any pre concieved notions about a crime. When you do this your tendencey is to see all evidence through that prizm and all evidence tends to support your conclusion. In other words as Arthur Conan Doyle once wrote "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Here is another favorite of mine from him. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment." Climate science does not have all the evidence, nowhere near yet theories abound! It is bias judgement. Then a bias judgement leads to helping the evidence as cops call it. OOPS. Go ahead tell me I am wrong John. (Oh and by the way it is MONEY that is biasing judgement in case you miss that point.)

Naw but the quote you seem to be wanting to follow is "No no no, not THOSE facts".
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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Quote:
On 2010-08-06 22:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Oh look The Intermountain Rural Electric Association paid Patrick Michaels $100,000 to help them develop an information strategy to combat those scientists who support anthropogenic climate change.

But wait, there's more. The letter mentions a group CEI that "has been running two ads in ten states that were financed by General Motors and the Ford Motor Company. …. We have met with Koch [Industries], CEI and Dr. Michaels and they meet among themselves periodically to discuss their activities."

But I'm sure none of this has any influence on Patrick Michaels' conclusions.

John


Naturally John the ONLY side influenced by money is those stupid enough to disagree with you right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Ok Danny, how many research proposals have you read? Or even glanced at?

Why are you so certain that conclusions are even mentioned in the proposals? Tell you what, go to http://www.nsf.gov and you will see the workings of the largest scientific research granting agency in the USA. Look through their application materials. See for yourself if there is a line on the form for conclusions.

And in case you haven't noticed, nowhere in the 8 pages (and counting) of this thread have I supported any position on global warming. I have championed EVIDENCE. I have criticised empty accusations. In agreement with the original op-ed, I believe that the real scandal is the way that certain people and groups are airing their opinions and accusations without being held accountable for them.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 08:42, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-06 22:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Oh look The Intermountain Rural Electric Association paid Patrick Michaels $100,000 to help them develop an information strategy to combat those scientists who support anthropogenic climate change.

But wait, there's more. The letter mentions a group CEI that "has been running two ads in ten states that were financed by General Motors and the Ford Motor Company. …. We have met with Koch [Industries], CEI and Dr. Michaels and they meet among themselves periodically to discuss their activities."

But I'm sure none of this has any influence on Patrick Michaels' conclusions.

John


Naturally John the ONLY side influenced by money is those stupid enough to disagree with you right?


Still not reading for detail and context, Danny?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 09:33, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Ok Danny, how many research proposals have you read? Or even glanced at?

Why are you so certain that conclusions are even mentioned in the proposals? Tell you what, go to http://www.nsf.gov and you will see the workings of the largest scientific research granting agency in the USA. Look through their application materials. See for yourself if there is a line on the form for conclusions.

And in case you haven't noticed, nowhere in the 8 pages (and counting) of this thread have I supported any position on global warming. I have championed EVIDENCE. I have criticised empty accusations. In agreement with the original op-ed, I believe that the real scandal is the way that certain people and groups are airing their opinions and accusations without being held accountable for them.

John


No John, you champion evidence YOU AGREE WITH! Never so blind as one who will not see. But it is obvious. IF the climate gate email scandal was on the opposing side from yourself, you would be on it like a white on rice and if you are honest for a second you would admit that.

Who cares how many grants I have applied for, looked at or whatever? Lots of straw men you construct John. You decry name calling while you yourself do it. (But that is ok because it is for a good cause right?)

Are you telling me John that say a tobacco company that funds a study does not pick and choose the people who conduct it? Are you trying to tell me that when the government goes to find an economist for an opinion it is not searching for one who agrees with them? Naive is the word that comes to mind John. Big money, big business and there is no bigger business than the government. If you don't think that conclusions matter you need to wake up and smell the toast burning. Governments are some of the largest and most corrupt business entities on the face of the planet. Keep "attacking the evidence" as you call it if it helps you, but John, step into reality for just a second. Do you think that the ONLY part of government NOT corrupted is the part of the government that deals with science?

Oh wait do I have to post EVIDENCE of government corruption?

(Still wondering if you will man up and appologise for name calling like you demand others do and for insults. But obviously you are not to be taken seriously anyhow. True believer and all.) You are a more feverish believer than any religious person I have ever met. That is a title with a lot of competition John, I live in the Bible Belt.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 10:24, Dannydoyle wrote:


(Still wondering if you will man up and appologise for name calling like you demand others do and for insults. But obviously you are not to be taken seriously anyhow. True believer and all.) You are a more feverish believer than any religious person I have ever met. That is a title with a lot of competition John, I live in the Bible Belt.


Read, Danny. It's been up since 6:19 on August 6.

Small wonder you don't understand my posts; you don't read them.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-06 13:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Woland, evidence is everything.

I'm afraid I was right the first time. You are not to be taken seriously.

John


Well in reality John, I was talking of THIS.

Now you let another high horse snarky remark come out that you will burry another appology at the end of a long bloviating post.

Small wonder you never know how many people you insult with your condecending attitude. You seem to do it so regularly it would be tough to keep up with. Seems that anyone who disagrees with you is worthy of only condesention from the great John. Got it.

I hope you keep track of your research better John or you may never get that grant.

Obviously YOU are not to be taken seriously.
Danny Doyle
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So you don't agree that somebody who believes "...the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization." should not be taken seriously?

Interesting.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Danny you are amusing. I do think your heart is in the right place, however.

Let me state this categorically: I give NO credence to accusations or generalizations that have no evidence to support them. Those who make these accusations and generalizations with no evidence (in this thread, that means Danny Doyle and Woland) do not warrant serious consideration.

Call me whatever you want, Danny. On the principle of accountability for one's words I will not budge.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Yet you take none for your own words and hold those you agree with to a less strict standard.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Evidence, please, Danny.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 11:13, Nosher wrote:
So you don't agree that somebody who believes "...the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization." should not be taken seriously?

Interesting.


I don't think I said that did I ?
Danny Doyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 12:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-07 11:13, Nosher wrote:
So you don't agree that somebody who believes "...the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization." should not be taken seriously?

Interesting.


I don't think I said that did I ?


No Danny, you didn't. Woland did, which is why I don't think it's a terrible insult to say he's not serious.

It was quoted earlier in the thread, apologies for any lack of clarity.
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MagicSanta
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Yes it is designed to bring down Western industrial might...clearly.
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On 2010-08-07 20:44, MagicSanta wrote:
Yes it is designed to bring down Western industrial might...clearly.

What might?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Quote:
On 2010-08-07 20:44, MagicSanta wrote:
Yes it is designed to bring down Western industrial might...clearly.


Designed by who, MagicSanta? What evidence can you offer? I know some climate scientists personally who are very big believers in global warming. They work for NASA. They have no monetary investment in the theory. They are not anxious to bring down Western industrial might--they depend on government funding, and it has nothing to do with issues of global warming. They send up satelites.

Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists from 48 different countries believe that global warming is real, a threat, and man caused. Do you really believe that all these people are working for organizations, colleges and universities, and governments that seek to destroy Western industrial might?

Doesn't it seem unlikely that these governments who depend so much on the money and support of multi-national corporations like big oil, coal and energy companies, would do anything to disturb the profits and success of their supporters? Why would they fund research that their patrons don't like, don't agree with, and want stopped?

Why would they want to give over control to some outside group of scientists who just want to make money by destroying Western industry and civilization?

Who do you think employs the majority of climate scientists? And why?
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