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balducci
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On 2010-08-16 20:21, Dannydoyle wrote:

What is it about lib/socialists that causes the doom and gloom and war and armed conflict over either this or that because it is running out and the population bomb and all the other scary nonsense you always put forth? Has even ONE of those doomsday scenarios happened? When do you learn with all that brain power at your disposal?

Right. Scary nonsense. You mean like Saddam has a nuke? That sort of thing? The liberals and / or socialists (in your country) might have been scared into going along with that, but I do not believe they were the ones mainly responsible for starting or propagating that particular scare story.

Out of curiosity, when WAS the last time some liberal doomsday scenario led to war and armed conflict, especially war and conflict involving the U.S.?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Who ever said Saddam had a nuke?

Balducci, please leave the liberals alone, they are always wrong and it is hurtful to them. Was Hearst considered a liberal? He hung out with hollywood types, if so then he started the Spanish American War, some say. Roosevelt was a lib and he certainly prepared Americans mentally for war prior to the US entering and putting an end to that ol' WW2. Most libs succeed in killing those within their own country rather than those in other countries unless they feel they can get away with it.
balducci
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Sorry, Santa. More precisely, I should have said something like had or was in the process of obtaining or developing one. E.g., http://www-cgi.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/ ("Vice President Dick Cheney accused Saddam of moving aggressively to develop nuclear weapons over the past 14 months").
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Actually he did have some equipment that we refer to as dual use, meaning, clearly, that they have a commercial that is rather mundane and can also be used in the process of nuc weapons etc.. In this case centerfuges were ordered, processed and licensed as dual use, and sent from Germany to Iraq. The likely use was, for those centerfuges, in the processing of nuc material. They lacked the materials to make such weapons and I don't believe that they were worried about that. The simple fact is not only did Iraq have weapons of mass destruction, defined as Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical (NBC) the USED them. Evidence was found of their existance but people were expecting trident missles with multiple nuke warheads. I can understand that but the UN believed they existed prior to our going in and all the evidence leaned in that direction. The US went in to enforce UN policies.

That being said and having experience in the region I tend to really doubt the intelligence that comes out of those countries other than Israel. In this case Saddam WANTED it to be thought that he had these weapons good to go because he had a neighbor in Iran that was just chomping at the bit to whip his arse. It is the street equivelent of patting your jacket implying one has a gun on them. The problem is you may do that dodge to someone who DOES have a gun and you end up shot. Say the police get a call and are told the person is in a house, has weapons, and said he wasn't going out without an all out fight. The police show up for that outcome they do not assume, as is often the case, that the dude is sitting there in wet pants ready to surrender at the first click.

Back to my representative Jon.
balducci
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Santa, that's all fine, but back to the question, when WAS the last time some liberal doomsday scenario led to war and armed conflict, especially war and conflict involving the U.S.?

If your answer is Hearst, that was a long time ago. I'm sure Danny must have had something more recent in mind.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Well shoot, you didn't give time limits!
Dannydoyle
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Was it the republicans who got us into Viet Nam or Korea? I forgot. I am pretty sure they were armed conflicts.

balducci here try this. It appears Hillary Clinton, along with a few others lied about WMD also.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php

I guess that doesn't fit into your timeline does it now?

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

I guess that lie speaks for itself huh?

Oh wait I know not THOSE facts. Right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MagicSanta
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WW2 and WW1 both had democrats in office when the US entered, as did Korea. The civil war had Lincoln in the White House when it started but he was handed the problem by the Dems and was considered one of our worse presidents because of it (Buchanan not Lincoln). Vietnam also had a Dem at the helm when we got into it.

On the other hand the Republicans did insignificant things like freeing the slaves and making major advancements for civil rights. Republicans also had the white house when women got the right to vote thanks to Wilson, or likely his wife who ran things while Wilson was ill toward the end of his time in office.

You are welcome!
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 22:40, Dannydoyle wrote:

Was it the republicans who got us into Viet Nam or Korea? I forgot. I am pretty sure they were armed conflicts.

Vietnam and Korea. Were they precipitated by liberal doom and gloom scenarios? In any case, you're pretty much talking about ancient history. I thought you had a more recent example in mind.

Quote:
On 2010-08-16 22:40, Dannydoyle wrote:

balducci here try this. It appears Hillary Clinton, along with a few others lied about WMD also.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php

I guess that doesn't fit into your timeline does it now?

Actually, Danny, if you would only read my posts more slowly so that you absorb all of the words I put down, you will see that I _did_ mention that some liberals went along with that WMD story. But they were not the ones who started the stories, were they. They were echoing the doom and gloom stories of Rove, Cheney, and that gang.

(OT, but I have to LOL at the rightwingnews domain name. I'm sure that site is even more fair and balanced than Fox. Sure is nice when your news source has an identifier like that built right into its name, so you don't have to waste time at sites with opinions other than your own.)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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What does the source matter? Hillary and others SAID IT and oh by the way her HUSBAND SAID IT AS PRESIDENT! LONG BEFORE ROVE!

Yea talk about never hearing an opinion other than your own. Look at the dates of the quotes. Before 9/11.

Yep it is all about the fact that it is a right wing site that makes smoke come out of your computer. Yep. That is the problem.

Oh wait not THOSE facts right? Pathetic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Payne
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 20:21, Dannydoyle wrote:

What is it about lib/socialists that causes the doom and gloom and war and armed conflict over either this or that because it is running out and the population bomb and all the other scary nonsense you always put forth? Has even ONE of those doomsday scenarios happened? When do you learn with all that brain power at your disposal?



This coming from the guy who has fits of apoplexy and is a hundred percent sure that life as we know it will end if a single tax is raised or a government regulation impose on those poor innocent corporations that only have our best interests in mind. Smile

So tell me Danny where is this infinite, never ending supply of oil going to come from?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
balducci
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On 2010-08-16 23:43, Dannydoyle wrote:
What does the source matter? Hillary and others SAID IT and oh by the way her HUSBAND SAID IT AS PRESIDENT! LONG BEFORE ROVE!

Yea talk about never hearing an opinion other than your own. Look at the dates of the quotes. Before 9/11.

Yes, look at the dates Danny. And recall, in my earlier post, I was talking about the nuclear weapons scare stories.

NONE of the quotes mentioning nuclear weapons at that page you linked to are prior to Cheney or Rove speaking about Saddam wanting / developing them. The earliest quote on that page you gave me that mentions nuclear weapons is dated December 6, 2001.

Last time I checked, December 6, 2001, was AFTER 9/11. Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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On 2010-08-16 23:44, Payne wrote:

So tell me Danny where is this infinite, never ending supply of oil going to come from?

You may have forgotten, but some months ago Danny posted a link to an article claiming that the oil crisis was either nonexistent or exaggerated. The author of the article said some things like we (the U.S.) would be fine if we only did more off shore drilling, and drilling in ANWR, and places like that.

However, the author of the article was a strong believer in the abiotic oil theory, which says that oil is actually a renewable resource continually produced by an "abiotic" process deep in the Earth.

I don't know that Danny ever commented on whether he believed that or not. But the author's claim that there was no oil crisis was clearly predicated on it being a renewable resource, so that the oil drill sites would never run dry.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Y'all are losing me..... Danny is being very rational, has never been hawkish, and presenting exact quotes from politicians and figures who were involved with the decisions made at that time. Those decisions were based on the information they had. Y'all come in waving your hands in the air and the benefit of selective hind sight and think you are taking the high road. I've never seen Danny, and I know I have not, advocate the invasion of Iraq. In fact I've said many times that I had no problem with Saddam killing off his own people, that is a very liberal thing to do (oddly in that region he WAS pretty liberal), nor did I care when the Iranians and Iraqies were killing each other off. The difference is I understand the position the UN, you know, the limp group of nations who have no desire to enforce their policies, took as well as the nations that went into Iraq. The term is Weapons of Mass Destruction, it was the press and all those that made it seem like we were looking for giant missle systems and all that. The general idea is to keep idiots from getting hold of weapons that an kill a few hundred thousand people at a time not to give them the chance to have them and see if they behave.

Did Iraq have a program with a goal of obtaining nuclear weapons? Yes.
Did Iraq have and/or use weapons of mass destructions? Yes.
Was their evidence of these weapons found? Yes.
Did Iraq have neighbors who would gladly take in weapons and other equipment to keep them from being found? Yes
Did the entire thing turn out exactly as I predicted? Yes.
Is Jon representing me, unwillingly, in the area of climate stuff? Yes.
Am I puzzled how this thread took this bizarre turn? Yes.
MagicSanta
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There is an oil crisis now? Geez....not again, that was the only really sucky part of the 70s and it wasn't real then.
balducci
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On 2010-08-17 00:22, MagicSanta wrote:

Am I puzzled how this thread took this bizarre turn? Yes.

Allow me to recap. Danny said the following:

"What is it about lib/socialists that causes the doom and gloom and war and armed conflict over either this or that because it is running out and the population bomb and all the other scary nonsense you always put forth? Has even ONE of those doomsday scenarios happened? When do you learn with all that brain power at your disposal?"

I'm just trying to figure out what one of these liberal / socialist scare stories leading to war and armed conflict is. Danny mentioned Vietnam and Korea. I was looking for something more recent, and specific to liberals / socialists.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Santa wrote:
Quote:
Did Iraq have a program with a goal of obtaining nuclear weapons? Yes.
Did Iraq have and/or use weapons of mass destructions? Yes.
Was their evidence of these weapons found? Yes.
Did Iraq have neighbors who would gladly take in weapons and other equipment to keep them from being found? Yes

0 out of 4 correct. Back to the Triple A team for you. And completely wrong too about what the UN said about an Iraq WMD program. But it's alright, rewrite history, some Americans might actually believe you.

Got yellow cake?
MagicSanta
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Landmark I never said they had uranium....I'm correct in all aspects.

1. Iraq purchased equipment for use in the refinement of nuclear material for weapons. Did they have them? Not that I know of but they clearly were in the process of obtaining it.
2. They gassed the kurds and there is a belief that they gassed the Iranians. That would fall into the catagory of weapons of mass destruction.
3. They found labs and containers with residue of chemical weapons. Again chemical weapons are classified as weapons of mass destruction.
4. Your denying this is actually very silly and pretty much indicates you don't apply much thought but follow the libby line.

I hate yellow cake, angel food is the way to go.

You are lucky you are one of my top five favorite people here bubba....
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From the horse's mouth:

The outgoing US President, George Bush, says his biggest regret in office was US intelligence that incorrectly stated Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

"A lot of people put their reputations on the line and said the weapons of mass destruction is a reason to remove Saddam Hussein," Mr Bush said in an interview with the US ABC TV network.
balducci
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On 2010-08-17 01:02, MagicSanta wrote:

2. They gassed the kurds and there is a belief that they gassed the Iranians. That would fall into the catagory of weapons of mass destruction.
3. They found labs and containers with residue of chemical weapons. Again chemical weapons are classified as weapons of mass destruction.

I agree with both statements. But circa 2001, I believe the idea being bandied about was that Iraq STILL HAD these weapons available in working form and was ready and able to use them again. That seems not to be the case.

Incidentally, and I'm sure you know this, ANY country with any sort of non-trivial industrial sector has the ability to make chemical weapons very quickly. So do many households in any developed country. So I've always found it a little strange when claims are made that a country does or does not have chemical weapons or the ability to make them. It's sort of a nonsense question in most cases.

Can we return to The Real Climategate Scandal now?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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