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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
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On 2010-08-09 15:23, tommy wrote: The 3% of climate scientists who don't believe in global warming. I have to at least give some credence to their position. So I couldn't be 100% sure. I have read as much as I can of their positions, but seriously haven't found any of their critiques to hold up. I have found many of them to be obvious shills for the monopoilistic energy industries. Still, I think it is only fair to weigh their disbelief against people whose knowledge and dispassionate analysis I actually do trust. I have actually read some books on the subject. I have some friends who are climatologists. I believe they are honest and sincere, knowledgeable, and have no profit motive for supporting and promoting the cause of fighting global warming. I am only 97% sure that global warming is real, dangerous, and man-caused. That is good enough for me. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am 97% certain of few things.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
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On 2010-08-09 21:08, Dannydoyle wrote: You should be 97% certain about global warming. It will do a lot more damage to this country and people around the world than any of the possible cures. from http://climateprogress.org/2010/07/13/cl......-to-act/ "How we as a society use what we have learned from climate science could define our generation. Right now, our nation — and the world — are at a crossroads. Yet we seem stalled — despite an increasingly clear picture of what human-induced global warming is doing to our planet. The scientific community — often working closely with governments — has produced numerous, carefully reviewed, international and national assessments of the scientific understanding behind climate change. The latest, “America’s Climate Choices,” recently released by the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, states that “scientific evidence that the Earth is warming is now overwhelming.” "U.S. National Academy of Sciences labels as “settled facts” that “the Earth system is warming and that much of this warming is very likely due to human activities” Their new report confirms failure to act poses "significant risks": May 19, 2010 "A strong, credible body of scientific evidence shows that climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems…. "Some scientific conclusions or theories have been so thoroughly examined and tested, and supported by so many independent observations and results, that their likelihood of subsequently being found to be wrong is vanishingly small. Such conclusions and theories are then regarded as settled facts. This is the case for the conclusions that the Earth system is warming and that much of this warming is very likely due to human activities." |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
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On 2010-08-09 21:02, Whit Haydn wrote: Whit Do you know how sure each the 97% are that man is causing significant amounts of global warming? I putt it to you that you would be hard pressed to find one genuine climate scientist that was as sure as 97% sure of it. If I am correct, then you are more sure than your own experts. One may be a climate scientist and believe man is the cause but be only 60% of it. I can tell you that your experts are not that sure at all Whit based on the ones I heard speak lately. How sure each one is varies of course. The point I am tying to make to you is the believers scientist may be a lot more sceptical or less sure than you think.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Whit, sorry but those are not exactly impartial opinions.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2010-08-09 10:52, Dannydoyle wrote: Interesting comment. Are you talking about the natural warming / cooling cycle of the earth in particular, or any natural cycle? If it is the latter, who says we have no business intentionally changing a natural cycle? Because we've been doing that for hundreds if not thousands of years. By diverting rivers and putting up dams, mankind has disrupted / changed countless natural flood cycles. Some of these might have been mistakes, but for the most part it is probably agreed that this has been a good thing. With a little thought, I'm pretty sure we can come up with other natural cycles we've (beneficially) disrupted around the world. The fear with global warming / global climate change is that this is not a change that is beneficial to us, but rather detrimental (i.e. in an overall sense - obviously there will be local winners and losers, as not all parts of the world would be affected equally or in the same manner).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2010-08-08 02:40, MagicSanta wrote: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on......1666916/ Amid an ugly, sprawling stretch of razed land in this developing city rises a hulking new facility that represents the future of China’s steel industry. The Shougang Jingtang United Steel Co. Ltd. mill ranks among the largest steel plants ever built in China and uses state-of-the-art technology that not only improves efficiency but keeps carbon emissions to a minimum. The Caofeidian mill is just the kind of modern facility that China hopes will provide the steel needed to fulfill its massive infrastructure construction plans over the next decade. And for the country’s thousands of small, dirty and inefficient steel producers, the Caofeidian plant stands as a reminder that their days are numbered. In a surprise move, China ordered more than 2,000 steel, cement and other energy-intensive factories be shut down by the end of September. The heavy-handed decree offers evidence that the central government is serious about abolishing its inefficient, power-hungry factories, despite the potential to hinder economic growth and create a backlash from powerful local officials. The unprecedented order is aimed at reducing China’s energy consumption and its growing reliance on foreign oil as well as shifting its booming economy toward modern production methods that are less harmful to the environment. ... James Miller, professor of Chinese religion and environment at Queen's University, said the tension between economic growth and environmental concerns have long been a major issue for Chinese policy makers. “Closing down these factories is a sign that things have shifted in favour of the environment,” he said. China has offered billions of dollars in incentives for companies to develop so-called green energy technologies such as wind and solar power. However, the country’s massive population of 1.3 billion people, rapid economic growth and rising industrialization have made achieving its ambitious environmental goals extremely difficult. China managed to reduce energy intensity by 14.4 per cent by the end of 2009 from 2005 levels ...
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
BEIJING: Despite China's pledges to improve energy efficiency, its carbon emissions could double by 2020 as compared with 2005 levels, surpassing limits seen as key to fighting global warming, experts say.
Read more: China emissions could double by 2020: Experts - China - World - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world......wAfPjUJY Another Onion layer?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I stand corrected, China is leading the universe in green while it is a good thing the evil manufacturing in the US is dead....
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n......wqAs7BS0
http://greeneconomypost.com/debunk-spani......1582.htm That is what I love about the internet. One study says no, another says they are crazy YES! http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Ar......id=46453 Now these are about "green jobs" and what nonsense/savior like tools they are, depending on which you want to read. People who believe in global warming and green jobs, like the second article, the non believers will use the other two. (there are more on each side, I simply posted these to illustrate the point) So is the idea now to simply count the number of economists who agree with a particular position? Is that what science has become?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I demand that you Americans pay our Phil Jones now!
Sir Alastair Muir Russell report is the now subject an enquiry by the USA Gov. The US Department of Energy peer review panel will now sift through the report to see if American taxpayers should continue to pay the unit the hundreds of thousands of dollars that they have been paying the Phil Jones den every year since 1990 but which was suspended a few months ago pending The US Department of Energy peer review panel enquiry into the matter. Whats the matter our British inquiries not good enough for you Americans? You don’t expect us to pay him do you?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 08:51, Dannydoyle wrote: Excuse me, Danny. The second report about the 2.2 job loss that you quoted is just a news report on the first by a right-wing "alternative to the liberal news." I think the first story is pretty well knocked down by the response to it you cited: "President Obama has framed part of his recovery plan around the creation of new jobs. He has used Spain and other European countries’ green jobs creation endeavors as inspiration (not necessarily models). However, a study , entitled “Study of the effects on employment of public aid to renewable energy sources,” by researchers at Spain’s King Juan Carlos University questions whether “green jobs” are worth the public investments. Lead author, Gabriel Calzada Alvarez, uses Spain’s investments in such jobs during the past decade as a case study to demonstrate that sustainable energy investment destroys jobs and the economy. I think there are numerous flaws in Calzada’s study. For one, he deviates from the traditional research peer-reviewed methodologies used to estimate jobs impacts, which tend to yield more accurate results. In this update, we have Spain’s response to his claims, proof that his data was falsified, an explanation of how the renewable energy investment did not have the major negative impact on business that Calzada claims, that his analysis was too simplistic to be applied in any real world model, and what most economists believe is the cause of Spain’s high unemployment rate. I will also bring to light extremely relevant facts, that Calzada fails to mention or factor in to the study." He then goes on to debunk the study thoroughly. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 08:51, Dannydoyle wrote: You got to love that un biased reporting there Danny I especially love this line “Microsoft and Google moved their servers up to the Canadian border because they benefited from cheaper energy there,” said the professor of applied environmental economics." The question is, what side of the border? I'll wager it's the stateside side. As if they'd actually moved them into Canada proper I have no doubt that they'd have taken no amount of glee in reporting it thusly. However they have phrased it to make it sound as if they have left the states in search of cheaper, less cap and tax encumbered energy costs. Also it is highly amusing that an article attacking green energy jobs fails to mention that the reason the electricity there is cheaper is because it is created by the very green jobs they are rallying against. Cheap, renewable, hydro electricity. Or do you simply blindly agree with the shaky conclusions of this poorly researched article because it reenforces your faith in your religion of denialism?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 15:07, Payne wrote: You would probably be correct. http://www.techvibes.com/blog/cheap-b.c.......province "The region’s main appeal to data centre operators is the cheap hydro power supplied by the Columbia River and its tributaries." "Not far south of the border, Microsoft Corp., Google and Yahoo Inc. operate data centres near Columbia River-fed dams." [ If they ever did move servers to Canada, it would probably be to take advantage of our cheaper and more efficient health care system. ]
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 15:07, Payne wrote: That reminds me of a scene in MASH (the TV series, not the movie), where Lt. Col. Henry Blake describes something as a real test of his leadershipmanship. ;) |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 15:23, balducci wrote: Do servers require an unusually large amount of health care? I wouldn't have thought so. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
There is a beautiful symmetry between the Gabriel Calzada report and much of the climate science noted above.
First, Caldaza et. al's report does not appear to be a peer-reviewed publication. Giving the draft a quick scan here it isn't clear why this report exists or who paid for it. But the "Debunking" article is just an article on an internet newspaper; not much of big deal there. The credibility edge should go to the economists, but not by much. So rather than picking sides in a race between losers, why not look deeper. What's in the data? Has anyone published supporting or critical analysis in a high quality peer-reviewed publication? John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 15:28, S2000magician wrote: Have you seen Nationwide Insurance's ad campaign that features "The World's Greatest Spokesperson in The World"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Here's one more bit on the Calzada report. The National Energy Renewal Laboratory published a (white paper) response to the report shortly after it came out in 2009. NERL is under the umbrella of the U.S. Department of energy. The full report is here.
The white paper concludes: Quote:
The recent report from King Juan Carlos University deviates from the traditional research methodologies used to estimate jobs impacts. In addition, it lacks transparency and supporting statistics, and fails to compare RE technologies with comparable energy industry metrics. It also fails to account for important issues such as the role of government in emerging markets, the success of RE exports in Spain, and the fact that induced economic impacts can be attributed to RE deployment. Finally, differences in policy are significant enough that the results of analysis conducted in the Spanish context are not likely to be indicative of workforce impacts in the United States or other countries. Of course the usual disclaimers apply: I'm no economist. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On 2010-08-10 16:02, LobowolfXXX wrote: I just saw one on YouTube where he interviews a woman who says she's never had an accident, and he phones the office to see if there's anything they can do for her. I was half-expecting they'd send out a car to run into her car. Someone's going to use that in a parody, mark my words. |
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