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Dannydoyle
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Just because we can not detect the causation, does that automatically make it man made? Does it automatically mean that we contribute at all? I would think someone of your vast brain power should see the flaw there.

Bottom line is we do not know enough to start making changes.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If man is not causing significant climate change then everything else is mere commentary.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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Anyone who is interested in a legal complaint against the Sun, but not for making the world too warm, rather for providing unfair competition to candle-dippers and lantern-makers, look for Frederic Bastiat's 1845 satire, "A PETITION From the Manufacturers of Candles, Tapers, Lanterns, sticks, Street Lamps, Snuffers, and Extinguishers, and from Producers of Tallow, Oil, Resin, Alcohol, and Generally of Everything Connected with Lighting. To the Honourable Members of the Chamber of Deputies." You can find it here, http://bastiat.org/fr/petition.html, or in English translation, here, http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html.

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 04:13, tommy wrote:

Now ask yourself why CO2 has received so much attention? It’s less than 4 percent of the greenhouse gases and a miniscule part of the total complexity that creates weather. Yet it’s the sole focus of all climate and energy policy. Why?



Perhaps this is part of the answer to your question.
Image


John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Payne
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 10:58, Dannydoyle wrote:
Just because we can not detect the causation, does that automatically make it man made?


But we can detect the causation of the warming and it appears, at least partially to be man made. Or do you have a better explanation as to why the average temperature of the globe is getting increasingly warmer.

Quote:
Does it automatically mean that we contribute at all? I would think someone of your vast brain power should see the flaw there.


It is because of my vast brain power that I that I can see the tipping point our increased output of cO2 has pushed us past where others of more limited intellect fail to recognize what is starring them in the face. Smile

Quote:
Bottom line is we do not know enough to start making changes.


Bottom line, the less crap we disperse into the environment the better off we will all be. The sooner we move to cleaner, renewable energy the better off we will all be. We know enough to start making the necessary changes now instead of waiting to the last minute when perhaps it will be too late. Unfortunately, it's probably already too late.

The oil is going to run out sooner than later. Wouldn't you rather be living in a country that was at the forefornt of energy independence than in some third world nation enslaved to a handful of despotic countries that posess the last remaining pools of the ever dwindling oil reserves?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tommy
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 11:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-16 04:13, tommy wrote:

Now ask yourself why CO2 has received so much attention? It’s less than 4 percent of the greenhouse gases and a miniscule part of the total complexity that creates weather. Yet it’s the sole focus of all climate and energy policy. Why?



Perhaps this is part of the answer to your question.
Image


John


Just how much of the "Greenhouse Effect" is caused by human activity?

It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account-- about 5.53%, if not.
This point is so crucial to the debate over global warming that how water vapor is or isn't factored into an analysis of Earth's greenhouse gases makes the difference between describing a significant human contribution to the greenhouse effect, or a negligible one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVshkVF0SY
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Magnus Eisengrim
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Tommy every time it is clear that you are blowing smoke, you simply change topics.


Quote:
On 2010-08-16 12:45, tommy wrote:

Just how much of the "Greenhouse Effect" is caused by human activity?

It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account-- about 5.53%, if not.
This point is so crucial to the debate over global warming that how water vapor is or isn't factored into an analysis of Earth's greenhouse gases makes the difference between describing a significant human contribution to the greenhouse effect, or a negligible one.



You really don't have a clue about this do you? Go back to the graphs I posted earlier. Now find the infrared area of the spectrum. Got it?

Now imagine that the earth is in radiative equilibrium. That is, the amount of radiation in is balanced by the amount of radiation absorbed and the amount emitted. Heat energy will be emitted in the infrared spectrum. Look at the graph again.

Now, the issue is not the absolute quantity of the gases, but the change. You see change works against equilibrium (roughly). Are you beginning to see where this is going, Tommy? You don't need more youtube; you need to learn some basic science.

John

(Prediction: Tommy will ignore the content of my post and focus on my condescending tone. Then he will post another youtube link.)
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Payne
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It's also cyclic. The warmer it becomes the more water evaporates and becomes vapor that traps in heat. The elevated cO2 was a trigger to this and continues to exacerbate the cycle.

The evidence suggests that our increased use of fossil fuels over the last century caused an imbalance in the makeup of the atmosphere and set in motion a rapid and unnatural increase in global temperatures.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tommy
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Sorry I put the wromg link up is this what mean?

Global Warming:
A closer look at the numbers

Water Vapor Rules
the Greenhouse System
Just how much of the "Greenhouse Effect" is caused by human activity?
It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account-- about 5.53%, if not.



This point is so crucial to the debate over global warming that how water vapor is or isn't factored into an analysis of Earth's greenhouse gases makes the difference between describing a significant human contribution to the greenhouse effect, or a negligible one.

Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (5). Interestingly, many "facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system, carelessly (perhaps, deliberately) overstating human impacts as much as 20-fold.

Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC's, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).

Human activites contribute slightly to greenhouse gas concentrations through farming, manufacturing, power generation, and transportation. However, these emissions are so dwarfed in comparison to emissions from natural sources we can do nothing about, that even the most costly efforts to limit human emissions would have a very small-- perhaps undetectable-- effect on global climate.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html




References:
1) Current Greenhouse Gas Concentrations (updated October, 2000)
Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center
(the primary global-change data and information analysis center of the U.S. Department of Energy)
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Greenhouse Gases and Climate Change (data now available only to "members")
IEA Greenhouse Gas R&D Programme,
Stoke Orchard, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, GL52 7RZ, United Kingdom.
2) "Carbon cycle modelling and the residence time of natural and anthropogenic atmospheric CO2:on the construction of the 'Greenhouse Effect Global Warming' dogma;" Tom V. Segalstad, University of Oslo
3) Greenhouse Gases and Global Warming Potentials (updated April, 2002)
Carbon Dioxide Information and Analysis Center (CDIAC), U.S. Department of Energy
Oak Ridge, Tennessee.
4) Warming Potentials of Halocarbons and Greenhouses Gases
Chemical formulae and global warming potentials from Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1996), pp. 119 and 121. Production and sales of CFC's and other chemicals from International Trade Commission, Synthetic Organic Chemicals: United States Production and Sales, 1994 (Washington, DC, 1995). TRI emissions from U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 1994 Toxics Release Inventory: Public Data Release, EPA-745-R-94-001 (Washington, DC, June 1996), p. 73. Estimated 1994 U.S. emissions from U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks, 1990-1994, EPA-230-R-96-006 (Washington, DC, November 1995), pp. 37-40.
5) References to 95% contribution of water vapor:
a. S.M. Freidenreich and V. Ramaswamy, “Solar Radiation Absorption by Carbon Dioxide, Overlap with Water, and a Parameterization for General Circulation Models,” Journal of Geophysical Research 98 (1993):7255-7264
b. Global Deception: The Exaggeration of the Global Warming Threat 
by Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, June 1998
Virginia State Climatologist and Professor of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia
c. Greenhouse Gas Emissions, Appendix D, Greenhouse Gas Spectral Overlaps and Their Significance
Energy Information Administration; Official Energy Statistics from the U.S. Government
d. Personal Communication-- Dr. Richard S. Lindzen
Alfred P. Slone Professor of Meteorology, MIT
e. The Geologic Record and Climate Change
by Dr. Tim Patterson, January 2005
Professor of Geology-- Carleton University
Ottawa, Canada
Alternate link: 
f. EPA Seeks To Have Water Vapor Classified As A Pollutant
by the ecoEnquirer, 2006
Alternate link: 
g. Does CO2 Really Drive Global Warming?
by Dr. Robert Essenhigh, May 2001
Alternate link: 
h. Solar Cycles, Not CO2, Determine Climate
by Zbigniew Jaworowski, M.D., Ph.D., D.Sc., 21st Century Science and Technology, Winter 2003-2004, pp. 52-65
Link: 
5) Global Climate Change Student Guide
Department of Environmental and Geographical Sciences
Manchester Metropolitan University
Chester Street
Manchester
M1 5GD
United Kingdom
6) Global Budgets for Atmospheric Nitrous Oxide - Anthropogenic Contributions
William C. Trogler, Eric Bruner, Glenn Westwood, Barbara Sawrey, and Patrick Neill
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry
University of California at San Diego, La Jolla, California
7) Methane record and budget
Robert Grumbine
Useful conversions:
1 Gt = 1 billion tons = 1 cu. km. H20
1 Gt Carbon(C) = ~3.67 Gt Carbon Dioxide(CO2)
2.12 Gt C = ~7.8 Gt CO2 = 1ppmv CO2
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 11:06, tommy wrote:
If man is not causing significant climate change then everything else is mere commentary.


Exactly wrong.

A meteor is hurtling through space aimed directly at the Earth. It will cause massive damage to the human species. Would you argue that nothing should be attempted?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Posting more stuff you don't understand, Tommy?

Can you relate the cut and paste above to the absorption spectra? Maybe that will clarify things.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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How big is the meteor?

I understand what he is saying John.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Payne
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 14:44, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Posting more stuff you don't understand, Tommy?

Can you relate the cut and paste above to the absorption spectra? Maybe that will clarify things.

John


Then there's always this from http://www.skepticalscience.com/water-va......-gas.htm

"Satellites have observed an increase in atmospheric water vapour by about 0.41 kg/m˛ per decade since 1988. A detection and attribution study, otherwise known as "fingerprinting", was employed to identify the cause of the rising water vapour levels (Santer 2007). Fingerprinting involves rigorous statistical tests of the different possible explanations for a change in some property of the climate system. Results from 22 different climate models (virtually all of the world's major climate models) were pooled and found the recent increase in moisture content over the bulk of the world's oceans is not due to solar forcing or gradual recovery from the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo. The primary driver of 'atmospheric moistening' was found to be the increase in CO2 caused by the burning of fossil fuels."


So it appears that the increase in water vapor can be attributed to man made causes.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 12:10, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-16 10:58, Dannydoyle wrote:
Just because we can not detect the causation, does that automatically make it man made?


But we can detect the causation of the warming and it appears, at least partially to be man made. Or do you have a better explanation as to why the average temperature of the globe is getting increasingly warmer.

Quote:
Does it automatically mean that we contribute at all? I would think someone of your vast brain power should see the flaw there.


It is because of my vast brain power that I that I can see the tipping point our increased output of cO2 has pushed us past where others of more limited intellect fail to recognize what is starring them in the face. Smile

Quote:
Bottom line is we do not know enough to start making changes.


Bottom line, the less crap we disperse into the environment the better off we will all be. The sooner we move to cleaner, renewable energy the better off we will all be. We know enough to start making the necessary changes now instead of waiting to the last minute when perhaps it will be too late. Unfortunately, it's probably already too late.

The oil is going to run out sooner than later. Wouldn't you rather be living in a country that was at the forefornt of energy independence than in some third world nation enslaved to a handful of despotic countries that posess the last remaining pools of the ever dwindling oil reserves?


Oh really? When oh great brain will oil run out? Give me a time frame not plattitudes and nonsense disguised as science. YOU CAN'T.

Is it a coincidence that the global warming cause also promotes your socialist agenda Payne? Would the science be SO SETTLED if it was pure capitalist solutions with no government regulations and no government money?

I bet you can't even answer that one honestly. Or won't. ANYTHING that promotes more government and more European style socialist democracy is ok with you no matter who it hurts.

Well I am at least happy that people seem to be awakening. Maybe they will wake up and agree with you, it is a risk. The propeganda machines and your willing accomplices in the mainstream media are ready to go and have been. But at least people are awake. That is a good thing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Payne
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 15:51, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh really? When oh great brain will oil run out? Give me a time frame not plattitudes and nonsense disguised as science. YOU CAN'T.



I can't, but the American Petroleum Institute can. They estimated in 1999 that the worlds oil deposits would be depleted between 2062 and 2094.

Supporting data here http://www.roperld.com/science/minerals/fossilfuels.htm

So how long do you think the oil is going to last?

You do realize Danny that oil is a finite resource. We aren't making any more and once it's gone, it's gone. Currently we haven't a viable alternative to replace it with?


Quote:

Is it a coincidence that the global warming cause also promotes your socialist agenda Payne?



No, I created the whole Global Warming Scam so I could inflict my socialist Utopian visions on the world at large. My plan will come to full fruition once I get my white Nehru Jacket back from the cleaners and I get Snowball, my cat, out of the pound.

My preferred social political system has no bearing on the science of Global Warming nor my acceptance of it. I'd still be a socialist even if the science is proven to be false. I believe in global Warming not because I'm a socialist but because currently that's where the evidence is pointing. The planet will continue to warm because of increased cO2 levels regardless of my socialist, or your capitalist beliefs.

Quote:

Would the science be SO SETTLED if it was pure capitalist solutions with no government regulations and no government money?



Nothing is stopping private industry to find capitalistic solutions to the problems at hand. In fact many entrepreneurs are working on the matter even as I write this. The wise capitalist sees that the old energy model we have built our society on is coming to the end and whoever discovers and holds the patents for the new energy source(s) will stand to make a substantial amount of profit.

I have no issue with a capitalistic solution as long as they treat their workers well, are stewards to the environment and distribute their profits equably.

Quote:

I bet you can't even answer that one honestly. Or won't. ANYTHING that promotes more government and more European style socialist democracy is ok with you no matter who it hurts.



True, I am a supporter of a more socially responsive form of government as the corporatist form of rule we have at the moment doesn't seem to be working too well.

But I fail to see how that enters into the equation as I am not in any sort of position to influence any sort of energy policy.

Quote:

Well I am at least happy that people seem to be awakening. Maybe they will wake up and agree with you, it is a risk. The propeganda machines and your willing accomplices in the mainstream media are ready to go and have been. But at least people are awake. That is a good thing.


Unfortunately we both will most likely live long enough to see gas prices soar as the reserves run out. Armed conflicts escalate as nation states battle over possession of the last remaining oil fields. All while global temperatures continue to climb. The road we are currently on doesn't lead to a very happy destination. We've already passed several exits to nicer places to go. let's hope we don't miss the next one coming our way.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 18:31, Payne wrote:...

I can't, but the American Petroleum Institute can. ...


And who owns the API and what are their interests? Could it be the same folks who like to raise gas prices when a sudden upswing in the average number kites flown (measured weekly in June) this year in Montana cause a lower availability of string?

http://www.api.org/Newsroom/taxes-hurt-oil-prod.cfm

Don't tax me bro!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 18:31, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-16 15:51, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh really? When oh great brain will oil run out? Give me a time frame not plattitudes and nonsense disguised as science. YOU CAN'T.



I can't, but the American Petroleum Institute can. They estimated in 1999 that the worlds oil deposits would be depleted between 2062 and 2094.

Supporting data here http://www.roperld.com/science/minerals/fossilfuels.htm

So how long do you think the oil is going to last?

You do realize Danny that oil is a finite resource. We aren't making any more and once it's gone, it's gone. Currently we haven't a viable alternative to replace it with?


Quote:

Is it a coincidence that the global warming cause also promotes your socialist agenda Payne?



No, I created the whole Global Warming Scam so I could inflict my socialist Utopian visions on the world at large. My plan will come to full fruition once I get my white Nehru Jacket back from the cleaners and I get Snowball, my cat, out of the pound.

My preferred social political system has no bearing on the science of Global Warming nor my acceptance of it. I'd still be a socialist even if the science is proven to be false. I believe in global Warming not because I'm a socialist but because currently that's where the evidence is pointing. The planet will continue to warm because of increased cO2 levels regardless of my socialist, or your capitalist beliefs.

Quote:

Would the science be SO SETTLED if it was pure capitalist solutions with no government regulations and no government money?



Nothing is stopping private industry to find capitalistic solutions to the problems at hand. In fact many entrepreneurs are working on the matter even as I write this. The wise capitalist sees that the old energy model we have built our society on is coming to the end and whoever discovers and holds the patents for the new energy source(s) will stand to make a substantial amount of profit.

I have no issue with a capitalistic solution as long as they treat their workers well, are stewards to the environment and distribute their profits equably.

Quote:

I bet you can't even answer that one honestly. Or won't. ANYTHING that promotes more government and more European style socialist democracy is ok with you no matter who it hurts.



True, I am a supporter of a more socially responsive form of government as the corporatist form of rule we have at the moment doesn't seem to be working too well.

But I fail to see how that enters into the equation as I am not in any sort of position to influence any sort of energy policy.

Quote:

Well I am at least happy that people seem to be awakening. Maybe they will wake up and agree with you, it is a risk. The propeganda machines and your willing accomplices in the mainstream media are ready to go and have been. But at least people are awake. That is a good thing.


Unfortunately we both will most likely live long enough to see gas prices soar as the reserves run out. Armed conflicts escalate as nation states battle over possession of the last remaining oil fields. All while global temperatures continue to climb. The road we are currently on doesn't lead to a very happy destination. We've already passed several exits to nicer places to go. let's hope we don't miss the next one coming our way.


http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/cold_turkey/
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-08-16 18:31, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-16 15:51, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh really? When oh great brain will oil run out? Give me a time frame not plattitudes and nonsense disguised as science. YOU CAN'T.



I can't, but the American Petroleum Institute can. They estimated in 1999 that the worlds oil deposits would be depleted between 2062 and 2094.

Supporting data here http://www.roperld.com/science/minerals/fossilfuels.htm

So how long do you think the oil is going to last?

You do realize Danny that oil is a finite resource. We aren't making any more and once it's gone, it's gone. Currently we haven't a viable alternative to replace it with?


Quote:

Is it a coincidence that the global warming cause also promotes your socialist agenda Payne?



No, I created the whole Global Warming Scam so I could inflict my socialist Utopian visions on the world at large. My plan will come to full fruition once I get my white Nehru Jacket back from the cleaners and I get Snowball, my cat, out of the pound.

My preferred social political system has no bearing on the science of Global Warming nor my acceptance of it. I'd still be a socialist even if the science is proven to be false. I believe in global Warming not because I'm a socialist but because currently that's where the evidence is pointing. The planet will continue to warm because of increased cO2 levels regardless of my socialist, or your capitalist beliefs.

Quote:

Would the science be SO SETTLED if it was pure capitalist solutions with no government regulations and no government money?



Nothing is stopping private industry to find capitalistic solutions to the problems at hand. In fact many entrepreneurs are working on the matter even as I write this. The wise capitalist sees that the old energy model we have built our society on is coming to the end and whoever discovers and holds the patents for the new energy source(s) will stand to make a substantial amount of profit.

I have no issue with a capitalistic solution as long as they treat their workers well, are stewards to the environment and distribute their profits equably.

Quote:

I bet you can't even answer that one honestly. Or won't. ANYTHING that promotes more government and more European style socialist democracy is ok with you no matter who it hurts.



True, I am a supporter of a more socially responsive form of government as the corporatist form of rule we have at the moment doesn't seem to be working too well.

But I fail to see how that enters into the equation as I am not in any sort of position to influence any sort of energy policy.

Quote:

Well I am at least happy that people seem to be awakening. Maybe they will wake up and agree with you, it is a risk. The propeganda machines and your willing accomplices in the mainstream media are ready to go and have been. But at least people are awake. That is a good thing.


Unfortunately we both will most likely live long enough to see gas prices soar as the reserves run out. Armed conflicts escalate as nation states battle over possession of the last remaining oil fields. All while global temperatures continue to climb. The road we are currently on doesn't lead to a very happy destination. We've already passed several exits to nicer places to go. let's hope we don't miss the next one coming our way.


What is it about lib/socialists that causes the doom and gloom and war and armed conflict over either this or that because it is running out and the population bomb and all the other scary nonsense you always put forth? Has even ONE of those doomsday scenarios happened? When do you learn with all that brain power at your disposal?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Let us imagine that "corporations exist to make money" and ask - well if folk's have to cut down their use of the current product - are they not more likely to seek substitutes and also lose brand loyalty?

Hey now for 2012, it runs on farts. Brought to you by baked beans and (insert car company name here)
...to all the coins I've dropped here
MagicSanta
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Oh well....believe what you want. Unless someone really ticks me off please refer to Jon for my opinion because he's a cool dude. Not only is he cool he is the ONLY person in this section as of late that I have heard referenced in a DVD, put that in your smokes and light it....hippies.
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