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Whit Haydn
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On 2010-07-31 13:27, tommy wrote:
The very idea that man has the ability that allows him to control the climate of planet is ridicules. The idea that man is doing so is a lie. The men that think we can or are must be suffering from delusions of grandeur. If we were going into a ice age all we do is prepare as we do for Christmas time. Its purely a political lie. Read chapter five . The real and whole purpose of of lie is control the people not the climate. Yes the climate changes as always and will. So what?


Actually, we put a hole in the Ozone Layer, and eventually fixed it by cutting back on fluorocarbons. Man can have an effect the weather:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2010-07-31 19:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
So John what do YOU do to contribute to the solution? Ride a bike to work? Don't use heating oil during the winter in Canada?

What level are YOU willing to drop your lifestyle to in order for your religion to be relevant?


Curious questions, Danny. The debate so far has been about the science.

But since you asked, I do walk and ride a bike as much as possible. I take (and like) public transit. But I do also own a car, and I use it when I have to.

As you note, home heating is a big concern in northern countries. I have a high-efficiency natural gas furnace (very few people use heating oil in this country) and I have the thermostat programmed to lower the house temperature at night and when the house is empty. I am currently beginning a renovation to improve overall heat efficiency, including replacing old windows with newer, more efficient ones.

As for the cheap crack about religion, Danny you really should be above that.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MagicSanta
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I will not be using my heater this Winter! Okay, it is because it is broken and if I don't get a job I won't able to replace it...but still it sounds good!

Heating is a problem up North, say, wouldn't it be great if we could figure a way to make it warmer?
tommy
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It seems John will be doing nothing different then.

Santa that would be cool.

Taking about religion, that is one of very reasons they came up with the lie of the threat of global warming: People are no longer going to church and they need something to unite them again and the threat of global warming fit’s the bill, they said. It is in fact a religion that they gave the idiot public. Read chapter five.

Hoe about that for a bit of irony, Payne as seen the light and does not know it. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Whit Haydn
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Tommy:

You sure find a lot of weird non-scientist "experts" for your theory. From Wikipedia on Webster Tarpley:

"Tarpley earned a BA at Princeton University in 1966 in English and Italian, summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa. Fulbright Scholar at University of Turin, Italy. Master of Arts in humanities from Skidmore College. He was born in Pittsfield, Massachusetts in 1946."

"Webster Griffin Tarpley is an author, journalist, lecturer, and critic of US foreign and domestic policy. Tarpley maintains that the September 11 attacks were engineered by a rogue network of the military industrial complex and intelligence agencies."

"His writings and speeches describe a model of false flag terror operations by a rogue network in the military/intelligence sector working with moles in the private sector and in corporate media, and locates such contemporary false flag operations in a historical context stretching back in the English speaking world to at least the "gunpowder plot" in England in 1605. He also maintains that "The notion of anthropogenic global warming is a fraud."

"He is a critic of the Dalai Lama, and opposed to support for a free Tibet."
landmark
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Quote:
On 2010-07-31 13:19, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-07-31 12:32, landmark wrote:
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On 2010-07-31 11:40, Dennis Michael wrote:
One thing is certain...The world has change from the beginning of time and it will continue for many thousands of years.



Probably true, the question is, are humans going to maximize our time here?

So, I go back to my question which no one has yet answered:

If global warming were shown to be occurring significantly, but not largely man-made, should we take steps to try and change it?

Let's deal with first things first.


I think most of use (wisely) chose to deal with "first things first". There are undoubtedly dilemmas regarding our appropriate use of this planet. How much oil contamination are we willing to tolerate in order to get at the earth's reserves in a timely and cost effective manner? To what extent are we committed to preserving ecosystems? To preserving the earth itself? These are great questions, worthy of discussion. But they do get in the way of the current discussion.

John

The reason I say this question comes first is this:

If you take the position a) that Nature or God must be allowed to take its course without human interference, or b) that nothing humans can do would make a difference anyway, then whether global warming is caused by man or is occurring at all becomes moot.

It is wise not to conflate the positions of a) and b) with the question of whether or not manmade global warming is occurring. Inevitably in these threads I have seen this happening.
tommy
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFCeJTEzNU

By the way Phil Jones and the rest then alarmists climate scientist and so called experts that you rely on are utterly incompetent.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Dennis Michael
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Doesn't it say in Revelations that the world will be consumed by fire? (Or something like that)

Maybe we pollute the oceans with oil spills, and let the lightning ignite it!

Wa-La...The worlds on fire! It won't be that beer can or recycling that gets us, it will most likely something much bigger and we will have no control over it.
Dennis Michael
Jonathan Townsend
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On 2010-07-31 23:22, Dennis Michael wrote:
Doesn't it say in Revelations that the world will be consumed by fire? (Or something like that)...


Not sure we need to worry about the sun going nova this year, but still - just one more reason to get the space program back up and running.
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When it comes to the world's climate, let's not be so northern-hemisphere-centric:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/13/2624141.htm

"An extreme spell of cold weather in Peru has killed almost 250 children under the age of five in the past four months."

The present winter is very cold. Note that the story ends: "Experts blame climate change for the early arrival of intense cold, which began in March, even though winter in the region does not usually begin until June."

Of course "experts" now talk about "climate change" rather than "global warming" because with the term "climate change" you can now blame anything at all on anything you want. Perfect, eh?

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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Woland, do you have a clue? The experts have always spoken of change; the overall warming has led to large regions of greater variation than before. You are confusing journalists with experts. Again. Read some science.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Nosher
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These threads will be a great resource for anyone studying the Dunning–Kruger effect...
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-01 09:42, Nosher wrote:
These threads will be a great resource for anyone studying the Dunning–Kruger effect...


Ha! Problem is we all think it's the other guy that suffers from miscalibration.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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On 2010-07-31 20:03, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-07-31 19:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
So John what do YOU do to contribute to the solution? Ride a bike to work? Don't use heating oil during the winter in Canada?

What level are YOU willing to drop your lifestyle to in order for your religion to be relevant?


Curious questions, Danny. The debate so far has been about the science.

But since you asked, I do walk and ride a bike as much as possible. I take (and like) public transit. But I do also own a car, and I use it when I have to.

As you note, home heating is a big concern in northern countries. I have a high-efficiency natural gas furnace (very few people use heating oil in this country) and I have the thermostat programmed to lower the house temperature at night and when the house is empty. I am currently beginning a renovation to improve overall heat efficiency, including replacing old windows with newer, more efficient ones.

As for the cheap crack about religion, Danny you really should be above that.

John


Well John, it is a religion with you. It really is. There is absolutely NOTHING that can be shown to you that you will not discount which would counter your belief. No matter what happens no matter what is discovered you are a true believer. It is about cherry picking science, it is not about science. It never is.

As for what you are doing cool. Those things will in the long run save you money. I actually had a choice between 2 houses, and chose the one better insulated, and more modern systems so they do not use as much energy. Fantastic.

But if things are SO bad, even public transit is certainly harmful. Having a car at all is evil isn't it? How far are you willing to go? The real question though John is how far are you willing to force others to go? Oh and is it the right thing to force others, when there is still doubt?

Most of the issues are those of freedom. There is a difference between my buying the house I did by choice, and being forced to buy it because of poilcy. That is where my main complaint lies.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
spatlind
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Woland
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Thank you, John, but I do have a clue.

As a worldwide phenomenon, the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization.

And it is all based on the famous "hockey stick" graphic which purportedly demonstrated that the apparent climate warming of the recent past would continue without wavering until, in Al Gore's hyperbolic hysteria, the temperature of the earth approached that of the planet Venus.

Well, it has now been shown that the temperature elevation in the latter end of the "hockey stick" graphic was either a mistaken or a deliberate artefact, and caused by (1) inaccurate surface temperature readings and decisions made to edit both satellite temperature readings and inconvenient surface temperature readings out of the model, (2) elimination of the medieval warm period from the model, and (3) "fudge factors" in the model itself.

If the extreme temperature rise in the latter end of the "hockey stick" graphic is not real, what is there left to worry about?

The world's climate may be on the warm side of its variability right now. If so -- enjoy it! When it gets colder, as it inevitably will, since what we are observing is just variation around the mean, you will find the world less hospitable than you find it now --- in many ways.

Woland
balducci
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On 2010-08-01 11:19, Woland wrote:

As a worldwide phenomenon, the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization.

And it is all based on the famous "hockey stick" graphic ...

Not true. Also, I guess you missed these reports from last week:

Associated Press

WASHINGTON-Scientists from around the world are providing even more evidence of global warming.

“A comprehensive review of key climate indicators confirms the world is warming and the past decade was the warmest on record,” the annual State of the Climate report declares.

Compiled by more than 300 scientists from 48 countries, the report said its analysis of 10 indicators that are “clearly and directly related to surface temperatures, all tell the same story: Global warming is undeniable.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tech......1655436/

“The conclusion is unmistakable – yes, the planet is warming,” said Derek Arndt, a co-editor of the report, called State of the Climate, which was published by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA.

“The facts speak for themselves, and speak simultaneously,” said Mr. Arndt, who runs the Climate Monitoring Branch at NOAA. “And, they all point toward the same conclusion – the globe is warming.”

The report – co-edited by researchers in the United States, Canada, Britain and Australia – pulled together data from 10 climate indicators measured by 160 research groups in 48 countries. The scientists compared the figures decade by decade as far back as possible, more than 100 years in some cases. They concluded 2000 to 2009 was the warmest decade ever, and the Earth has been growing warmer for 50 years. Each of the past three decades – 1980s, 1990s and 2000s – was the hottest on record, the researchers said.

This year is shaping up to be even warmer. For the first six months of 2010, the combined global land and ocean temperature was the warmest on record, according to the NOAA.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/bams-state-of-the-climate/

[For those who care, the above report makes no claim that this warming is due to man's activity.]
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Woland
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Balducci,

All I have claimed is that (1) the observed apparent warming of the recent past (and present) is well within the limits of variability of the natural climate as far as we can tell from various forms of data about the historical climate, (2) that the presented evidence that the warming observed is due to human activity is unconvincing and that it is not necessary to bring human activity into the model in order to account for the climate changes that have been observed, (3) that the "hockey stick" graphic, which has been used to show that there is something out of the ordinary about the current period of warming, is an artefact, and (4) that in any event, living in periods of a warmer global climate is much to be preferred over living during periods of colder global climate. Nothing in the articles you have presented refutes any of those 4 points.

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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Woland, please provide credible scientific evidence to support your position. I promise to read it and comment appropriately.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Nosher
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On 2010-08-01 11:51, Woland wrote:
Balducci,

All I have claimed is that.......

Woland


Not quite.

You also claimed that "...the whole "global warming" or as some prefer "climate change" movement is not a merely scientific discussion or debate, but a political action movement devoted to dismantling western industrial civilization."

Which, quite frankly, places you in the set of tin foil hat wearers.
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
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