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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Difference between Hypnosis and Trance (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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bobser
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This topic supposes that there IS such a thing as hypnosis and does NOT invite comments from those who think it's only social compliance. We've done all of that and I personally feel that that particular topic shouldn't even be mentioned in this room. Smile

So... some feel that there can be hypnosis without trance.
Others have said they believe in trance but not hypnosis.
Many believe that you need trance to enter hypnosis.
Because I respect those with clever minds and notice how these same clever minds differ I often wonder if hypnosis and trance might in fact merely be synonyms (one of the same).
I mean to say, at the end of the day, they are both constructs. Together and separated.
Any thoughts?
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Owen Mc Ginty
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Anthony Jacquin and James Tripp should have some good thoughts on this one Smile
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mindpunisher
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Hypnosis is the process that induces or leads trance. Trance is the current "configuration" of your mind whereby your senses are directed and focused inward.

These senses visual auditory kino taste and smell are constantly moving between external and internal. You can see the screen, you can hear the external keyboard taps and you can hear your internal voice as you tap or imagine the people you are talking to all at the same time.

In reality you are constantly projecting memories emotional and visual on to every experience you have. So external senses are mixed with internal.

Whenever you take time to think about an event say a good night out and remember how it felt what you saw what you heard etc. Then you are in a trance.

There are different types of trances hypnosis is the process of guiding you from one to another.
bobser
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Quote:
On 2010-07-22 04:42, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
Anthony Jacquin and James Tripp should have some good thoughts on this one Smile


Maybe, but are they any better than yours Owen? What do YOU think? I want to know.
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Mindpro
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I don't like how the words "hypnosis" and "trance" are used as they are often used as interchangable with each other. Plus the way we as hypnotists use them differ from the perception of an audience and how they accept them.

To me hypnosis is the process of reaching a suggestible state of mind. I don't like or ever use the word "trance" because to a laymen they immediately think of a zombie-like state of mind in which they lose control or walk around stiff and rigid, arms extended like a zombie. I do not want these images anywhere near my use of hypnosis. Part of the hypnosis process is educating the person, committee and audience to the realities and what to expect. By mixing these words or images it can lead to confusion rather than understanding.

Expectation plays an important part in believability. If someone believes trance and hypnosis are each different, they will have separate expectations. I have found that using the process of "hypnosis" leads one to "a level of deep relaxation and suggestibility" rather than "trance." Also the word trance brings up the image and question of "but what if I get stuck in the trance?" As ridiculous as it may sound that is a common thought or misperception to lay people. But the idea of "getting stuck in a level of deep relaxation and suggestibility" sounds absurd as they know no one has ever gotten stuck in relaxation, so it disarms them and their possible resistance. This is why I never even introduce the word "trance". It's a subjective word, that can have negative connotations.

I feel to an audience the process of witnessing hypnosis is just as important and entertaining as what happens and what you do once your desired level is obtained.
mindpunisher
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Trance is nothing other than the inward focus of the senses. Forget about the audience. The fact you mention the word audience means you are limiting the boundaries of what hypnosis and what you can do with it.


Its your trance if you like. Adopt a more liberating trance.

Trance is natural state of mind which we are in all the time.

People are suggestible all he time. And can experience most hypnotic phenomena while "wide awake".
Engali
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I don't have Tripp's material, but have researched as much as I can about it off his website and blog. It's an interesting aproach/model of hypnosis. I might pick them up sometime.

I would personally argue that while it's not "just" semantics, he's largely reframing what trance is. His idea of hypnotice loops fulfills the requirements for the definition of trance(Kein's?):

1) Suspension of critical factor
2) Establishment of acceptable selective focus.

His emphasis is on using NLP style language to effect #2, which naturally will effect #1 as they continue(heh) to follow his suggestions.

The one thing that sticks out for me from his material that I've seen is his ability to get "deep trance pheomena" while the subject is apparently in light levels of "trance(?)". However, as I noted in his negtive hallucination clip with the friend in his off office, the clip started with the guy opening his eyes. I don't know what was edited out, but I think he was first put in "deep" and then told to open his eyes while he's effectively still "deep".

Regardless, as far as I'm concerned, it's still a form of "trance", just not what is normally accepted or perceived as trance...which is, in itself, something that people have been hypnotically conditioned to believe. Iow, they're in trance. I subscribe to the theory that we're all constantly moving in and out of various trance states and that being "awake" is largely a mere possibility for most people. It requires dedicated work to actually get there though. See "Waking Up" by Charles Tart, Paul Harris' first essay in Art of Astonishment vol. 1, and Buddhism for what people have been saying for a long time now.
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/deleted accidental repost
Owen Mc Ginty
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Getting technical, whilst everyones opinions are based on their on subjective experience of "reality" I have the following to offer:

firstly, I would agree that it´s correct to assign different definitions to hypnosis and trance. I agree with the definition Engall posted regarding the critical factor and selective focus, but here´s what I consider to be the difference (just my ideas):

* Trance - is a state I consider we can slip into naturally, where Engalls 2 points are manifested. Thus I don´t believed the eyes need to be closed to enter this state. Here my thinking is what I understand James Tripp to be talking about in his popular blog (google him and you can read more on this).

* Hypnosis is trance "with a difference" : I consider hypnosis to be the result of someone other than the subject themselves managing to engage the subconscious, thus managing to "get in the driving seat" as it were.

The techniques for managing to achieve the state of hypnosis include "wedges in" to quote A. Jacquin. The mastering of these techniques is what currently inpires me with a sense of awe, the like of which I can only compare now to the awe I experienced when as a very young child when I saw magic shows and knew nothing of cables, trap doors etc.

p.s. Bobser - I´ll be having my first 1 to 1 hypnosis training class (theory for the first lesson) at some stage soon - this thread has given me food for thought already.

Cheers Smile
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Engali
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Wrote my post and didn't even answer the question heh.

The difference between Hypnosis and Trance is the difference between Magic and sleight of hand. IS trance hypnosis? As much as sleight of hand IS Magic.

Hypnosis is goal-directed utilization of trance for a desired effect in the same way Magic is the goal-directed utilization of sleight of hand for a desired effect. Trance is a doorway, a tool used to achieve the Hypnotic process.

If the goal is a destination, Hypnosis is a direction, the possible approaches within hypnosis are possible routes, and trance is a vehicle to traverse the routes.
Shane Masters
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I always felt trance is more of a " tunnel vision " affect. Much like when you are so zoned out into something, nothing else going on around you really matters. A state of obsession or 1 dimensional focus. Your conscious and subconscious are focused completely on that one task. I feel your mind IS still selective at this point....actually more selective since it ignores everything else , but, that one item.

I always felt that hypnosis was allowing your subconscious to take over so your conscious can do whatever it chooses. In this state, it is completely the opposite as trance, since , you are no longer selective regarding the data that is being fed to your brain. Many things at this point can sway your actions/reactions. -Shane
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mindpunisher
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Your unconscious is always in control. You do very little consciously.
Shane Masters
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My unconscious is in control when I have just downed a bottle of Bourbon or Scotch. My wife refers to is as "passing out". I refer to it as " Drinking as much booze as necessary to make her look good". -Shane
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mindpunisher
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Typing in your last post requires ver very rapid calculations to co-ordinate the muscles in your hand with your thoughts and the alphabet. You couldn't do it consciously. Likewise where did those thoughts come from in response to my past post?

They came from some place "within". Your unconscious mind. Very very little of what we do- we do consciously just about everything we do is unconscious.
Frank Douglas
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Quote:
On 2010-07-22 19:11, mindpunisher wrote:
Your unconscious is always in control. You do very little consciously.


Perfect example of this is driving. You start at point A.... Arrive at point B, and rarely can remember the trip it's self, other than things that demand your concious attention. You see the vehicles around you, you make the required turns, speed changes, etc. But do you actually think you yourself, slow down now, move into the left lane now, etc?

No.... you have conditioned yourself to subconciously handle all the minutia for you.

JM2CW

Cheers
Frank
Shane Masters
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Oh. You are talking about your "subconscious". Unconscious is a totally different think. Just jerking your chain MP.

I agree your subconscious is always working. In my opinion though, the difference between "trance" and "hypnosis" is exactly what I stated earlier....

Trance: Absolute focus of both conscious levels onto a single task. Your mind is selective at this point.

Hypnosis: Your mind is not selective and is willing to accept any and all data it is subjected to.

Please keep in mind, this is based on my own ideals of the definitions of trance and hypnosis are. -Shane
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mindpunisher
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No Shane not your subconcsious but your unconscious mind. Anything out of your awareness is unconscious. Just about everything we do comes from the unconscious or we do unconsciously. Even the "conscious thoughts and urges or intentions" come from the unconscious mind. In fact some argue there is no such thing as a conscious mind.
Shane Masters
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You are correct kind sir. I purposely avoid the term unconscious when I am speaking hypnosis
I have brainwashed myself to be this way
The reason is that of I am talking hypnosis to the average person and say "unconscious", they think they are physically knocked out. "Subconscious" is a safer word.- Shane
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Engali
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Exactly.

To get even more specific with driving, drive down an extremely straight road and glance back and forth between your hands and the road. You'll notice that, no matter how straight the road, there are small imperfections , potholes, etc. that will make your car veer off slightly. What's more interesting is that your hands don't stay still--they jiggle back and forth slightly from center to course correct and to keep straight. You'll also notice that "you" aren't the one calculating/figuring out how many fractions of an inch you should turn to the left/right to counteract the imperfections in the road. It's your subconcious that has managed to figure out how to do this...along with most every other thing about the physical actions of driving itself.
mindpunisher
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And that is why you need to have bigger goals focus on where you want to go and your unconsciius mind will figure out how to get you there. You could say hypnosis among other things is the car....you need to focus on the destiny. Then you will figure out how to use hypnosis or learn what you need to learn in order to get you there.

Quote:
On 2010-07-23 15:38, Engali wrote:
Exactly.

To get even more specific with driving, drive down an extremely straight road and glance back and forth between your hands and the road. You'll notice that, no matter how straight the road, there are small imperfections , potholes, etc. that will make your car veer off slightly. What's more interesting is that your hands don't stay still--they jiggle back and forth slightly from center to course correct and to keep straight. You'll also notice that "you" aren't the one calculating/figuring out how many fractions of an inch you should turn to the left/right to counteract the imperfections in the road. It's your subconcious that has managed to figure out how to do this...along with most every other thing about the physical actions of driving itself.
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