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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Why the world needs WikiLeaks (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Scott Cram
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What's supposed to be one of the big things about this leak is that helicopters are being brought down by anti-aircraft missiles, similar to the Stingers we supplied the anti-Soviet fighters with back in the 1980s.

The "chickens coming home to roost" narrative is already flying around the internet, on the assumptions that these are somehow still-functioning 25-year-old-plus Stingers. That's a pretty incredible maintenance record for the region.

Markymark, the people behind this leak may not get a medal, but it will probably get more soldiers killed. And to Wikileaks supporters, that's almost as good.
MagicSanta
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Yeah, I thought the same thing when I heard about the Stingers.

The content isn't why the person who stole, let's call it what it is, stole the material should be prosecuted it is the fact that it was stolen. If someone on my ship had walked off the brow with a classified document in their pocket by mistake they would have been busted, this guy is a traitor at worse, a thief and potential murderer at best.

I just watched the news, can someone please tell that guy from Wikileaks to butch it up a bit? I thought it was an old woman.
tommy
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Cui bono my fellow sophisticates. Maybe none of it is stolen.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2010-07-27 15:34, MagicSanta wrote:
There is no truth in the field. The truth changes with the wind. When I was in Beirut we bombed hospitals, villages, and herds of cows. Were we being evil war criminals? ...


Well, let's see... if you could hear that from someone who said they did the same here - in their efforts to get the war out of their country and free themselves of an invading civilization would you consider them evil war criminals?

While truth is a lie we live with, hypocrisy is a truth others might not feel so charitable about.
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MagicSanta
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I'm sorry I don't understand the question Jon, could you rephrase it please?
Jonathan Townsend
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The question Magic Santa is simply whether we can understand or relate to how it would be to be in the shoes, or see the world from the perspective, of others.

Whether we build ourselves a box of boards to hide inside or just blind ourselves with splinters - it's still getting in the way of discussing things that others are yelling about. Others exist. If we have a problem with the notion of others who are just as human and have just the same intrinsic rights as us - I don't know what to say.
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MagicSanta
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If you mean in the perspective of those in Beirut none of the parties involved at that time were Lebanese. We had Palestinians vs Israeli and we were UN forces. Certainly each group had a different perspective and felt at least one other group was wrong. I know the Israelis felt they were defending their country, the Palestinians were, in their opinion, claiming pieces of everything, as for UN forces I only saw Americans.

The second part is still a bit foggy. You cannot steal documents and release them to anyone without the expectation of a penalty for doing so regardless of your motivation. From what I read they believe it is some young man from the Army who stole the documents and 'leaked' them. He, if guilty, did not have any right to do what he did, period. He violated the law and the punishment ranges from five years in prison to death. If that is worth it to him fine he can take his place on a cross. My comments come from the act itself not content.

I realize a number of people want the US to pull out of everything and that is fine too but when the Taliban takes over and starts to slaughter the populace then I hope that those who only look from one perspective realize it is they that are putting that round into some young womans skull because she walked in a manner some guy thought was too fetching.

If you are wondering I was against going to Iraq because I knew, having been to that region and knowing the mentality of the people, that it would turn out exactly as it has. I did think the Taliban was a force for evil that needed to be removed. Their movement is no better than the Nazi's that thankfully are far less sophesticated.
Jonathan Townsend
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If I understand your position you are arguing that it is awkward if not wrong to act in a way that does not also hold oneself accountable, and I agree with that as an ethical stance.
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MagicSanta
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My main concern is the safety of individuals that might be reduced because of this. Being ex military and where I was I'm very sensative to that type of thing. I certainly do understand others have different views that I on Iraq, some are gung ho being there, I am not but I also realize what would happen if we pulled out. I happen to be anti Taliban so I really don't care what they do to eliminate them but I find it tragic that they chose to hide among civilians but they have shown they don't care as much about their own people as the West does. Hey, I'm also worried about what is going on in Mexico where in the last four years they estimate 25,000 people have been killed in their drug war...yet people tend to ignore it.

Jon, you know I like and respect you and I always appreciate your input.
Jonathan Townsend
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Thanks MagicSanta. I'm doing what I can to avoid getting into a discussion of moral calculus - or even introduce the notion of our troops being used as hostages to an ugly agenda. IMHO something like WikiLeaks is our best hope for avoiding the horrors of the last century. Let's get rid of the "but how could I have known..." defense and start addressing root causes.

I have no idea what to say about our 'war on drugs' beyond that more and more drugs are being advertised and that those who grow the base ingredients are more likely to want to grow crops to feed themselves than we might expect. I'm trying not to get political here. Same for avoiding current issues which involve religion and long histories of less then welcome visits to places where folks have very long memories.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Well we can’t be having Government documents being stolen via the internet and the Government need to step in and control the net immediately! I wonder who it was who stole them and gave to them to Wikileaks? And when the Government take over the net I think they should stop all them conspiracy theorists from posting. Don’t you?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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kcg5
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Quote:
On 2010-07-27 12:23, tommy wrote:
Oh Kay

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/lqtyfrbsty--Senators-and-Presidents-don't-have-men-killedAl-Pacino-The-Godfather-Michael-Corleone-Diane-Keaton-


"who's being naive, Kay?"



love the film
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
MagicSanta
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From the article, which of course could be wrong, the future convict downloaded the classified documents onto a CD and then sent them to the site that is putting them out.
tommy
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And what part of the Government did the future convict work for I wonder, a branch the intelligence service perhaps? The CIA is usually responsible for providing national security intelligence.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
MagicSanta
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Army, enlisted. Again it is a question of stealing classified, be it classified rightly or wrongly, documents which is what happened.
tommy
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Or perhaps one them other civilian government agencies with top secret clearance such as Google perhaps.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Woland
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A real danger is not that any specific item of intelligence has been revealed through the actions of an evidently deranged person, but what the overall release of almost 100,000 documents reveals about the day to day functioning of the military system.

On the other hand, it appears that the biggest "revelation" in the leak is the documentation that the Pakistani intelligence service, and possibly a large faction within the Pakistani military and (obviously, hence) government, are aiding and supporting the Taliban. That is not really a surprise, since the Taliban were a creature/creation of the Pakistani intelligence service all along (which is why the US allowed the airlift of some 5,000 Pakistani intelligence operatives and their most valued Afghan assets out of the encircled Taliban stronghold of Kunduz. Remember?)

The intensity of the problems in Afghanistan began increasing at the time that the Musharraf government in Pakistan fell. It seems that he was doing something to rein in the ISI and weaken the Taliban. With General Musharraf out, the situation has gone from bad to worse.

Perhaps the intent was to shame the administration into dealing with the Pakistan problem a bit more forthrightly.

Woland
tommy
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Apart from and killing anyone in sight what else is the day to day functioning of the military system?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2010-07-27 22:05, tommy wrote:
Apart from and killing anyone in sight what else is the day to day functioning of the military system?


USO performances by magicians?
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
MagicSanta
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Tommy, the Western militaries are so sweet now it is amazing. Kill anyone in sight, right....
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