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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
From the pros here, what is the recommended length for a real world paying Show?
Lance Burton's Dove Act is about 6 minutes in full. Jeff McBride's Mask Routine ranges from 4 to 9 minutes. Rudy Coby has always advised a 3 minute Routine. What is your take on this?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Looks like you are going by what you see on YouTube, these are edited for YouTube as originally YouTube only wanted 5 minute videos, I think they have increased that recently due to new compression software. The acts you list are really longer then your times. Lance Burton act runs 20 minutes.
When they had review acts in Las Vegas this was the standard running time for acts between re-setting the scenery for the next full stage acts. Usually you create a 20 minute act and then adjust according to the place you are appearing at currently. Your material should be able to be adjusted by removing a trick sequence and the continunity is still perfect. Joseph Gabriel did this once on Rosie O'Donnell show. He came out and only did his OLEC routine and his Fire to Dove effects. I remember because I was so surprised how he left out his lead in effects and just did a very small part of the full effect. If you go for a contest like with the IBM or SAM Conventions, the contest acts use to be only 8 minutes, I think they have extended it to 10 minutes recently. But if you are asked to present you act to the evening show, you are expected to do 20 minutes. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
20 minutes for a Manipulation Act nonstop?
One whole 20 Minute Routine to Music? Seems a bit long... I understand if it's four 5 minute Routines back to back though...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Sorry, but that is show business, I did not say it would be easy.
Lance does cards, birds, floating Zombie or Floating Canary cage, I am told in Vegas he also did cigarette manipulation. Every act should have highs and lows leanding to a climax. With good stage presentation it works out fine. You can have a good 10 minutes of manipulation magic, but you should have 2 or 3 features you can add to the middle to lengthen the act to 20 minutes. Get the Mr. Electric (Marvin Roy) DVD from Stevens Magic, he will explain what I am trying to convey to you. |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Pakar,
it is just as you described...it is perfectly acceptable to do 4 routines of 5 minutes each or any combination of that...if you need 20 minutes. Creating 20 minutes isn't all that difficult and as WmHegbil, suggests, keeping the act 'modular' to allow for additions or deletions is very practical.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
William, you wrote: "If you go for a contest like with the IBM or SAM Conventions, the contest acts used to be only 8 minutes, I think they have extended it to 10 minutes recently. But if you are asked to present your act to the evening show, you are expected to do 20 minutes."
That sounds like for the contest you are restricted to 10 minutes, but if you win the contest, you have to add 10 minutes of stuff that wasn't in the contest. It would seem to me that the convention committee is taking a huge risk. There's no guarantee that the magician who wins a spot on the evening show with a 10 minute act will be able to extend the act twice it's contest length and still maintain the high quality that got him/her the evening show spot in the first place. A 1960's issue of _The New TOPS_ had an article by Frances Marshall that featured dove workers. The following quote relates to Channing Pollock's act: "Channing is always gracious to visiting magicians when on tour, but he doesn't feel he has much in common with them when they would like to exchange tricks. They tell him they can do a two-hour show, and he knows it took him a lifetime to develop his seven minutes." ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Anatole, you are correct, but times have changed. People coming from Vegas tell me they no longer use the short acts.
That is why I am answering the original question the way I did. Most Convention acts do a 20 minute spot. So you should have some extra material handy if you are asked to fill this time slot. That is what being a professional, and in the entertainment business is all about. I have seen some acts do their short act the next day when they pick 2 good acts, but usually acts are booked for a longer act the next year if they were good or won recognization in some way. The last I heard there is only one place to do a 7 minute act and that is in France. Can't remember the name of this famous nite spot. Even today when people call for booking a show they think an hour show is to short a time. If you want the booking you give them what they want. So it is best to be prepared. |
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
I guess you're right--Times have indeed changed. Twenty minutes still seems a long time to perform manipulations to music. If you check page 488 of _Cardini: The Suave Deceiver_, John Fisher writes: "Depending on the demands of the cruise lines, individual spots might need to be expanded to thirty minutes duration... Tricks that he [Cardini] had once dismissed now became sound commercial fillers. One such was the Professor's Nightmare... Others included the Chinese Sticks, the sucker silk and egg... the card sword..." On page 491 we read about Cardini including rice bowls... I would imagine that Cardini talked when performing many of those effects. Ironic, too. I remember Vernon telling a story about Cardini's act before it became the classic, sophisticated silent act. Vernon said Cardini would do the Chinese Linking Rings and patter, "I did this trick for the King of Siam. He said, 'Mr. Cardini, you are a very clever fellow.' I told him, 'Yes, I am.'" Of course, the development of a longer act with patter may have been a necessity when moving from the night club to the cruise ship.
Interesting, though, that Fisher uses the expression "commercial fillers." It suggests that the commercial tricks were added to "fill out" time that was left over from the classic act. ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Yes, Marvin Roy aka Mr. Electric says on his video that his short act is his standard, then he adds the bill in light bulb and another effect along with the girl in light bulb for longer engagements. Yes, his bill in light bulb is a patter talk part in the middle of his standard act.
That is also why it is good to have an assistant, to help set up and help with the transition from music to patter. It is a lot of work, but you are being paid to perform a show. Wish JNeal will ring in with more insight as he is performing all the time on cruise ship currently and at the Castle with his magic. He can tell us what he is currently being requested to provide. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
I think you've misunderstood me.
If we're putting a Patter Act into this question, then I already have my 45 minute Show that I've been doing for the last 10 years professionally... I was just asking about the "Manipulation to Music" part that I'd like to put together...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Thanks for the endorsement William!
The not-so-short answer is that when I started out , I did a nine minute act to music...basically all manipulation. Within a year, I had expanded to about 18 or 20 minutes of music based material and only talked occasionally to introduce a routine. That covered me in most performing situations for about 15 years. Of course, a second show was required in many markets and that was predominantly talk material. In 'those days', variety acts would split a program of about 45 minutes between two or three performers. Today, at least on ships...that rarely happens. Most of the time you are expected to do a 45 or 50 minute show 'solo'.... (or with assistants). My main show is about 50 or 55 minutes and at least 30 of it will be music based. In my case you might classify it as manipulation. The longest 'chunk' of non-stop music might be 8-10 minutes, but most are shorter segments which alternate with talking routines. In order to sustain and build audience interest over that length of time, it is necessary to create contrast and a dynamic range, which can be accomplished with this method. Frankly, I would usually not recommend performing 20 minutes of music based manipulation uninterrupted, because most performers don't have material to build the emotional 'arc' necessary. The last great act that did close to 20, without dialogue… was Lance Burton's 14 minute act followed by the card word (non speaking version) and the swordfight transposition. Answering the original question, I’d say 9-12 minutes seem to be a good compromise. Regards-JNeal
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
I’m not sure, but I think what Pakar Ilusi is asking is how long should the song go. Should it be one continues stream like a classical piece or several short pieces. Is that correct?
If so, I guess it depends on what you are trying to convey. I use to do string together several contemporary pieces and have a definite ending to each before starting into more manipulations. Now I am putting together a longer routine to classical music about 9 to 12 minutes long. JNeal is correct, you don’t want to go much longer than that. Even if you have more material, at least break it up with another change in tempo song. |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
The song should be only as long as necessary. There is a value in taking several effects and using the music to give organizational support and tie the effects together. Some tricks lend themselves to certain musical styles and lengths. there is no hard and fast rule about this.
when I started, using tracks with vocals was just not done. David Copperfield did a lot to change that, by using judicious taste in selection and editing...and now it's quite common. Regards-JNeal
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
JNeal,
You are right on the money about bookers wanting a full show not an act. The days of working variety shows (except for magic conventions which do not pay much) are over. I usually tell people when I judge contests that the act they do for the contest may be a good start for a show but it is by no means a dhow. I take my "convention act" and put talkers in it to expand it from 12 minutes to 30 minutes for laymen. Another reason you see some of the short times for acts above is that the act can be segmented. Working on television or a cruise ship, you must be able to do 3 or 4 or less segments of magic. I am sure that JNeal could explain this better than I what modern performance requirements are. Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
The few professional venues where places you might get away with only a 7 or 10 minute act is: European TV spot, European cabarets (such as The Crazy Horse),The Magic Castle, a comedy club such as the "Comedy and Magic Club" in Hermosa Bch. Calif. (When I first did a 9 minute act of manipulation set to music, I had 5 places to play in LA...now, only the Magic Castle and the Comedy and Magic club remain.)
Ships generally require a 45 minute show, possible an additional 15- 20 minute show...and they might ask for a closeup show of 30 to 45 minutes. These requirements change from cruise line to cruise line and year to year. REgards- JNeal
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Well it is great to get the real information from the experts. So appreciated, by me.
Well, I did not read the question as a music length guestion. That is for another area of the Café. But they are so right, you do not just pick on song or music piece and loop it for your whole act. Again, watching YouTube and thinking that is how it is done in the real world. It is best to find music that enhances each trick, effect, or routine you devise. There is a book and DVD on the subject of Music for Magic, I think it is still around. It may or may not help with the question as it gets general and technical when explaining music. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
I was just asking about the "general" length of most pro manipulation acts really...
I kinda get the feel that it is 9 to 12 minutes. I already have a working 45 minute Show, but it is a patter driven Script with Comedy and Illusions. So, thanks for the info everyone!
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
Channing Pollock’s act was 7 minutes. He also used seven doves as well as seven decks of cards. He was a very spiritual person believing in the zodiac. I’m surprised he didn’t make his act 12 minutes (or even thirteen being that there are actually thirteen signs to the zodiac).
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-08-20 12:22, mtpascoe wrote: Wow, that's deep. Basing your performance time on your spiritual beliefs.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Stucky Inner circle I'm Batman! 1355 Posts |
I think having a modular set is beneficial. I do strongly agree with Rudy Coby's 3 minute idea as it gives you a basis in which to set the BEST and most impressive moments of your act into. If you feel you have to fill 8 minutes, then you do exactly that, fill it with stuff that is not essential nor furthers the plot/routine. This is the problem with most "competition acts". They are trying to fill time with useless moves and wasted effect.
Look at Kevin James. He does not have a set "act" he has many signature pieces that he can pick and choose and weave together if he so chooses. That kind of freedom is not only good for the performer, but anyone who hires you. As for a "proper" time for a manip act? It depends when you do it in the show. Is it an opening piece used to establish character and tone of the show? A middle piece to just "show off"? What is the goal? I say keep it short. Don't leave them wanting LESS.
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