I had someone approach me a few years ago at a clown convention, a video person, to make a dvd of my act to sell to other performers. I was flattered they thought it was something that could sell, but I declined because my assumption was that if you sell a teaching DVD, and that's what we were talking about, that you were selling permission to use the material, ALL the material, on the DVD. I'm jealous of my stuff, it took me a long time to create my act, and I'm no Charlie Frye so a lot of it would be fairly easy to copy and use. Probably not as well as I do it because it's built on my character. But if somebody just did your act, badly, and the next week the same people see you do it much better, they'll think you stole it from the first one they see regardless of who does it better. Another thread on a similar topic got me to thinking.. what IS the assumption when you make a DVD? Are you giving people outright or implied permission do do your stuff? This is hypothetical by the way, a general question, I have no plans to make a dvd.

If you sell your act, you've sold your act. From my point of view, the buyer of a teaching DVD has the right to perform it, unless you make very clear that this is not the case before they hand over the money. The only exception to my mind is that I think TV or radio performance would generally need separate agreement.

Personally, I would keep the act under your hat until a lot of magicians are ripping it off anyway.

I think, let alone the people that see you live; putting your act on the DVD provides more people access to what you do. If they purchase it and see (where they wouldn't otherwise) they may very well do what you do. It would be very difficult to enforce any stipulations that you place on what you produce outside of copyright laws.

On the other hand, if you think of the gain from the video would out weigh the income you receive from your act indefinately; perhaps you should think about it

If I had an act worthwhile, I probably wouldn't reveal any workings or videos unless I retired the act or I had many more acts of better quality or if the act (going public) would produce a million dollars (that number could change at any time)...

Someone in another area on a similar topic used the term 'retirement strategy'.

If you make a DVD the permissions are up to you but 99.9% of the people will steal whatever they want, whenever they want if they think it can help them improve their show.

Just because you put it on DVD or in a book does not mean it's up for grabs. what actually happens, however, is a completely different story.

the only benefit you get from putting it on DVD is your claim to the original material , as yours. It just prevents some of the liars from claiming it's their original material.

Tom Burgoon published his TP routine in Genii (or Magic) for that very reason: So everybody knew, once and for all, who they were stealing the trick from; him!

And furthermore, if you put your act on DVD, I'll bet that most people that steal your material aren't even buying the DVD. They are getting it from friends, buying pirated copies, trading for other DVDs, etc.

So if it's not up for grabs, how do you know what is? I've watched a LOT of DVD's. I don't remember any of them where the performer specifically states, one way or the other, you can use my lines or you can't. L&L just released a 3 DVD set of the 3 card monte. I think about 20 variations on the routine. Isn't the value of each variation in how that magician structured and presented his variation. Isn't that what you're purchasing? I remember when Needle Swallower and Mind Reading Goose came out, a lot of the ad copy and posts by Bob on the msg boards talked about how the lines were honed over years of performance and that performers would get the best milage by using those exact lines. However, I doubt that it's specifically stated on the DVD that you can use those lines verbatim.

I would think that the expectation is that if it's on the DVD, you can use it UNLESS the performer spefically states, don't use my lines, create your own.

btw, a discussion about how it's better to create your own material than to copy the performance you see on the DVD is a completely different discussion than the propriety of it.

just my opinion.

If a DVD is sold over the counter, anything inside is up for grabs. It doesn't even matter if the guy selling it says "this (or that) is not for public use" within the DVD itself. If you buy it it's yours, end of story.

The only way around this is if the DVD is "leased" instead of sold outright. Some guys do this, but not many. But this does legally limit the "buyer" to what ever the lease agreement happens to say. These DVD's also usually have special security features embedded within the code so that any unauthorized copies can be traced back to the point of origin.

So if you didn't sign a lease, or any other type of legally binding contract before exchanging money for the product then the seller has given up any rights to the material being sold.

If they come in here later and complain about getting copied, that's just sour grapes. They're not exactly rushing to give back the money they made from selling the tapes, so I don't see how they have the right to try and guilt their own customers from using the stuff they freely took money for in the first place. It is a common enough scam though, isn't it?

I just purchased a George Carlin DVD. Am I to understand that I am now free to perform his act?

There have been a number of tricks where I watch the video demo and can work it out. Tricks must be free to perform, I can understand where TV and such could change this and I would also like to understand this further.

In an art where it is all about secrecy, how can someone know how you did something?

If I were to have a show at this time, I imagine I would use many of the tricks I have acquired but use my own presentation to a degree. There is not much variation to be had with some tricks/routines so these may be similar.

You buy a DVD to find out how to do it, you do it.

Sheet music has legal stuff written on it about performances and also has a clear publisher etc. Magic ebooks and DVDs etc can be much less easy to trace who to contact etc.

Some people on here must have been in a situation where they needed this sorted out, anyone with more experience can give a definite answer?

For example, a trick like Witness by Lee Asher (just something that came off the top of my head as having something fairly distinctive and also hard hitting), if I own this DVD, surely I can perform this trick in my shows, otherwise what is the point in selling it? If I were on TV and did this, then what happens? Does someone own the rights to tricks using sandwich bags on TV? Magic must be on the border of needing copyright and also needing a patent for some things.

There is a big difference between performance only and explainaton or teaching videos If there is seperate portion or even seperate video for teaching. I feel every thing on it is fair game. Contrast that with a comedy magician who performed at a magic club, collected admission and sold his notes. After he perfomed and " taught" he stated do not use my lines. Every trick he did was standard, i.e. card in balloon. None of these were original with him. What was he selling? I asked for my money back and I got it.
Ed Gilmore

No. Because the DVD you purchased was a performance, not an attempt to teach. I have a set of DVDs from the Ed Sullivan show featuring all the Beatles appearances on Ed's show. On these DVDs are performances by Tommy Wonder and Fantasia. Owning these DVDs does not give me the right to perform any of the magic I saw on those performances.

What Ed said. My comments were for instructional tapes, not performance-only tapes.

Alright, I want to take this a step further. I own the usual pile of books and DVDs. Suppose I wanted to teach a class on magic to clowns who want to add something to their act? Do I 'own' the tricks to the extent that I can teach them to others for pay?

The only time I've run across something similar was a community college class on magic that required everyone purchase a 'textbook' -- it was Harry Lorraine's, "Magic Book" and the instruction was maybe 80% out of that. In that case, each student was an 'owner'. I don't see how that would work for a class that used a variety of one-offs though.

Any suggestions?

You don't "own" the original material. What has happened, is that the true original owner has relinquished their own exclusive ownership rights. The material in question then becomes part of the public domain. Once that happens it is up to the descretion and/or morals of the reader to decide how to use the material after the point of release.

Just to be clear: I have not said, not am I trying to imply in any way whatsoever, that it is proper to copy/clone anyone else's original material. Not even if you have bought the DVD. I am not condoning this behavior. I am only trying to provide a realistic balance to all the "hack" comments we've been reading lately.

It almost seems like there is hierarchy. I wouldn't be asking the question about something like "Professor's Nightmare." Things that have been around long enough they have become classics, don't require a branded prop and I don't think I'm taking money out of anyone's pocket in the process.

Other stuff, I'm not so sure about.

For the authors/creators here -- has anyone ever approached you for permission to use something of yours in a class setting? Did you give it?

Why would they give permission for something like that? Instead of each student buying a DVD, they only get to sell one? Even if there is some legal basis or loophole I find the notion highly unjust. You're taking money right out of the pocket of the creator doing that.

Give us an actual example of something you'd be willing to teach and not have each student purchase and still feel good about your decision?


Orchestras buy music for EACH musician. They don't just buy one copy for each instrument and head to Kinko's.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done but when caught there are severe fines.

You're also allowed to purchase a movie DVD but you're not allowed to charge people to see it.

(emphasis added)
There ya go! You answered your own question.

Students have to be taught the difference between building a routine around a classic effect, and stealing a routine. I've taught clown classes. There are those amomg them, like some magicians, who will steal material no matter what they are taught. But most, if they are given the ethic, the code, and taught the difference between standard gags and effects and personal material, will try to respect that.

I'm preparing a little workshop for the local clown club about creating an act. Most of these folks have seen my act. Those who haven't will see it at the workshop. The difference is that I'll be able to explain directly to them what's standard and what's original. For instance.. "this is a change bag, here's how it works, here's a standard routine..the routine I do is mine."..

If I were to offer a textbook, I'd write my own (for a clown class). Or, if it were a magic class, I'd make them purchase a good beginners book. Mark Wilson's maybe, it feels like a textbook, nice and heavy.

My real goal with the class is to teach them the personal value of creating one's own act. To me it's what makes an art of this ridiculous activity, to create something original, the process and the product both.

I have been asked by folks if they can use my material. I have sometimes said yes and I regretted it. I just don't like it.

Chameleon silks, linking rings... but these would require a purchase to actually use.

Others though, you can build your own -- Zombie anything, bottomless tubes.

I'm not out to skirt the issue, I'm trying to understand what would and would not be appropriate. As an example of a self-built I wouldn't feel comfortable teaching: Hundy 500.