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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:45, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:35, MagicSanta wrote:

John...the Hajib is NOT (<---see that word?) required by the Islamic religion.

Well, I suspect that is quite open to debate. I'm in no mood for taking part in that, on either side, at the moment.

But note the very last sentence below, in what I quoted from here:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satel......99913217

"Hijab is a religious obligation for Muslim women. It is a religious ordinance that is supported by both the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Thus, hijab is a duty that Allah Almighty prescribes for the Muslim woman, and she has to carry out that duty in compliance with the Command of Allah by showing her sincere faith in Allah through wearing the hijab.

The Islamic dress code for women is not only covering the head or wearing a long dress. Hijab is the proper Islamic dress code, which is primarily intended to safeguard the modesty, dignity, and honor of men and women.

It is incorrect to use the word hijab to refer only to the headscarf."

So hijab (proper dress) IS required. The head covering may not be.


Apparently before her citizenship classes, she didn't realize that potentially she might be permitted to wear the proper attire, so last year, she didn't. That raises the question, "Why did she take a job where she wouldn't be able to practice her religion in a way that is required by it?" I can't remember his name, but I'm reminded of the college football player who would have been a certain first-round NFL draft pick, but became a school teacher because his religious beliefs would not permit him to work (play) on Sundays.

The "backstage" accommodation presented by Disney seems eminently reasonable - she would be able to meet the "requirements" of her religion, and they would be able to present the image they choose to the public.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MagicSanta
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Here we go with the link BS:

The Qur'an instructs both Muslim men and women to dress in a modest way.

The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is surah 24:30-31, asking women to draw their khimar over their bosoms.[5][6]

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimar over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to [...] (Qur'an 24:31)
In the following verse, Muslim women are asked to draw their jilbab over them (when they go out), as a measure to distinguish themselves from others, so that they are not harassed. Sura 33:59 reads:[6]

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Qur'an 33:58–59)

annnnnd:

Other verses do mention separation of men and women but they refer specifically to the wives of the prophet:

Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance:(Qur'an 33:32–33)
And when ye ask of them [the wives of the Prophet] anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain.(Qur'an 33:53)
According to Leila Ahmed, nowhere in the whole of the Qur'an is the term hijab applied to any woman other than the wives of Muhammad..[8][10]

According to at least two authors, (Reza Aslam and Leila Ahmed) the stipulations of the hijab were originally meant only for Muhammad's wives, and were intended to maintain their inviolability. This was because Muhammad conducted all religious and civic affairs in the mosque adjacent to his home:

People were constantly coming in and out of this compound at all hours of the day. When delegations from other tribes come to speak with Prophet Muhammad, they would set up their tents for days at a time inside the open courtyard, just a few feet away from the apartments in which Prophet Muhammad's wives slept. And new emigrants who arrived in Yatrib would often stay within the mosque's walls until they could find suitable homes.[8]
According to Ahmed:

By instituting seclusion Prophet Muhammad was creating a distance between his wives and this thronging community on their doorstep.[11]
They argue that the term darabat al-hijab ("taking the veil"), was used synonymously and interchangeably with "becoming Prophet Muhammad's wife", and that during Muhammad's life, no other Muslim woman wore the hijab. Aslam suggests that Muslim women started to wear the hijab to emulate Muhammad's wives, who are revered as "Mothers of the Believers" in Islam,[8] and states "there was no tradition of veiling until around 627 C.E." in the Muslim community.[8][11]

Since the usual suspects will be digging up the links and clippies that are extreme here is a good one for you to remember:

Since Balducci and John seem to be gung ho keepin' it real for the Muslims:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

oh oh.....not more....

Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”

not more!

Tuesday, May 30, 2006
Why Muslims Behead "Infidels?"

Do you remember that guy in the picture? It is Nicholas Berg, the first American beheaded by Islamic terrorists in Iraq. Have you ever wondered why Muslims are so dedicated to cutting people’s heads? I have the answer: The Quran told them that. Check this satanic Islamic verses and judge for yourself:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Here is Islamic Hadeeth (oral tradition) that shows the vile and the vindictive nature of Muhammad. It also shows how he sought pleasure by beheading people, especially Jews

Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”


Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.”
Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”


So I'm guessing had she wanted to kill a few infidels and a couple Jews it would have been okay cuz she was just following her religion, I mean, since the Hajib isn't required then the murderin' that is must be okay right?
MagicSanta
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Lobo, the Oakland A's lost a top pick to the priesthood because he felt his 'calling' didn't mean after a few years in the majors. That was just this season.
Josh Riel
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:40, LobowolfXXX wrote:



Uhhhhh yeah...cuz without us transforming it like that, what in the story is remotely religious, or political? I guess that Council for American Islamic Relations (the political/religious group that got involved on the plaintiff's behalf) must have predicted the Café posters' discussion would somehow create a political or religious issue out of this. Who knew they had staff mentalists?!


Hit a nerve? neat. But you must be new here, so I'll give you a tip: This sort of discussion gets blindly political, etc., blah, blah, blah, and no one will have anything new or interesting to say.
But it will at least be heated. Your bitterness feeds me.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Scott Cram
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It boils down to one question: Who is forcing this woman to work at Disneyland? No one? If dressing that way at work is so important to her, there are more than enough places in and around Anaheim that will accommodate her preferred style of dress at work. There are employers with less strict dress codes than Disney.

Seeing as she's no longer being scheduled for work at Disney, that approach could also help bring in some money. A new employer could also easily be cast as her hero in press releases.

Of course, if this is more about making Disney and western culture look bad and/or give in more to Islam, she'll spend more time fighting this than she will looking for an accommodating employer.
MagicSanta
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What does that have to do with the A's losing a good pitcher?
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:45, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:35, MagicSanta wrote:

John...the Hajib is NOT (<---see that word?) required by the Islamic religion.

Well, I suspect that is quite open to debate. I'm in no mood for taking part in that, on either side, at the moment.

But note the very last sentence below, in what I quoted from here:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satel......99913217

"Hijab is a religious obligation for Muslim women. It is a religious ordinance that is supported by both the Qur’an and the Sunnah. Thus, hijab is a duty that Allah Almighty prescribes for the Muslim woman, and she has to carry out that duty in compliance with the Command of Allah by showing her sincere faith in Allah through wearing the hijab.

The Islamic dress code for women is not only covering the head or wearing a long dress. Hijab is the proper Islamic dress code, which is primarily intended to safeguard the modesty, dignity, and honor of men and women.

It is incorrect to use the word hijab to refer only to the headscarf."

So hijab (proper dress) IS required. The head covering may not be.


Apparently before her citizenship classes, she didn't realize that potentially she might be permitted to wear the proper attire, so last year, she didn't. That raises the question, "Why did she take a job where she wouldn't be able to practice her religion in a way that is required by it?" I can't remember his name, but I'm reminded of the college football player who would have been a certain first-round NFL draft pick, but became a school teacher because his religious beliefs would not permit him to work (play) on Sundays.

The "backstage" accommodation presented by Disney seems eminently reasonable - she would be able to meet the "requirements" of her religion, and they would be able to present the image they choose to the public.

Is it so obvious that a head covering is NOT permitted? What is the actual dress code for women? From the links you posted, it seems the main thing is that the female dress be modest, i.e., no long fingernails, no odd tattoos, no bare legs, etc. It seems like a modest head covering is totally in keeping with that policy. So I don't think it is at all obvious that a head scarf was not permitted.

Indeed, as it turns out, a head scarf IS permitted and Disney said she COULD wear a head scarf designed by Disney. Disney is just taking its sweet time designing one.

So again, what is taking Disney so long, and couldn't they have predicted that something like this would come along sooner or later? Why did they not have a head scarf already approved?

I think Disney plain dropped the ball on this one.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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Cuz they are a huge corporation and they had to have dozens of meetings, design sessions, budgets, in California they had to file an enviromental impact statement, then bid it out, find a manufacturer in China, do the tooling, and then get it made, imported, and delivered. Does Disney have any Amish workers? If not why not?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 01:03, Josh Riel wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:40, LobowolfXXX wrote:



Uhhhhh yeah...cuz without us transforming it like that, what in the story is remotely religious, or political? I guess that Council for American Islamic Relations (the political/religious group that got involved on the plaintiff's behalf) must have predicted the Café posters' discussion would somehow create a political or religious issue out of this. Who knew they had staff mentalists?!


Hit a nerve? neat. But you must be new here, so I'll give you a tip: This sort of discussion gets blindly political, etc., blah, blah, blah, and no one will have anything new or interesting to say.
But it will at least be heated. Your bitterness feeds me.


Yeah, these "I'm too cool to participate in the thread, yet here I am anyway" posts always hit a nerve...the ulnar nerve, to be exact. For the irony- and/or subtlety-impaired, that's the funny bone. That is to say, they crack me up.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Scott Cram
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Food for thought:

What happens if a Muslim man applies for a job as a bartender? Do you not give him the job because he can't handle alcohol? Do you think such a person should be fined or jailed for refusing employment due to religious reasons?

What will you do if you walk into your bank, and all the tellers are wearing a hijab? How do you know they actually work there? How do you identify one when you have a legitimate service complaint?

Is it legal to refuse a job as a butcher to a Muslim because they can't handle pork?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 01:41, Scott Cram wrote:
Food for thought:

What happens if a Muslim man applies for a job as a bartender? Do you not give him the job because he can't handle alcohol? Do you think such a person should be fined or jailed for refusing employment due to religious reasons?



Clearly, you hire him, then you hire a second bartender that you wouldn't otherwise need, and have him serve the booze so that you can let the first bartender serve only non-alcoholic beverages.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MagicSanta
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If they won't do the job you don't give it to them....

I did ask a Muslim guy who owned a liquer store why he sold booze if he was against it. He said some Muslims actually hade issues with him owning the place but he didn't care what others did with booze, he just didn't drink it.
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Disney does not HIRE cast members...they are CAST in the role they are to play (ie: job to perform). This was traditionally the way Diz has gotten around such things. Sorry, you don't fit the role, or are out of Costume. She knew that.
A trouble maker.
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landmark
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 01:41, Scott Cram wrote:
Food for thought:


What will you do if you walk into your bank, and all the tellers are wearing a hijab? How do you know they actually work there? How do you identify one when you have a legitimate service complaint?



What is your argument here? I really don't get this.

But the original question I think was really interesting. The notion of a hostess (or any employee who has contact with the public) as a cast member is seductive and needs to be looked at more closely.

Were she hired at Hooter's, I assume she would have to show flesh. Not a good place for her. The costume is a necessary condition of the job.

OTOH, I would have a problem with a bank saying she could not wear the hijab as a teller. Perhaps the test is, will the public display of her religious dress impair the performance of her duties. At Hooter's yes, at the bank, no. Same as growing a mustache, though religious dress should be even more protected than mustaches. So at Hooter's, no mustaches, at the bank, yes.

I don't think an employer should be allowed to make a blanket claim to being allowed to control an employee's appearance based solely on how that appearance might impact customers. That would leave the door wide open to defend positions such as "I don't want [Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Gays, etc.] to work for me because my customers don't like them."

Back to Disney---let's please reframe this discussion to eliminate any possible anti-Muslim bias affecting it. So, is it okay for a Christian hostess at Disney to be wearing a visible cross? How would I feel if Disney responded, you can wear a cross but only of our design. Or, is it okay for an Orthodox Jew to wear a Yamulke (skull cap) as a host? Again, Disney says you can only wear one of our design. I'm not a religious man, but in thinking this through (and that's all I'm really doing now, is trying to work this out for myself) I think it would not seem right to me to deny that religious freedom.

OTOH, should Disney have the right to say that Mickey Mouse cannot be wearing a cross or Skullcap? Probably. But maybe religious freedom is so important that it should trump even that. Maybe it's okay to have Christian MM's, Jewish MMs, Muslim MMs. Maybe we would be a more tolerant society if MM didn't come in one flavor. What a concept!

So, in conclusion, I'm not sure. But there is something about a diversity of MMs that makes me smile, and brings me to a happy place. Very American. Not French at all.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 01:49, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 01:41, Scott Cram wrote:
Food for thought:

What happens if a Muslim man applies for a job as a bartender? Do you not give him the job because he can't handle alcohol? Do you think such a person should be fined or jailed for refusing employment due to religious reasons?




Clearly, you hire him, then you hire a second bartender that you wouldn't otherwise need, and have him serve the booze so that you can let the first bartender serve only non-alcoholic beverages.

Fair enough, but does a hospital have to hire two doctors because one won't perform abortions or dispense birth control drugs? I think that argument cuts two ways.
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I think and hope that Disney will prevail here. As others have said If she didn't like the dress code she shouldn't have continued on with taking the job.

If she doesn't want to follow the rules she knows where the door is, and there will be someone right in front of her walking in to take her place.

As with any job. You follow the rules or you leave pure and simple. There really isn't any gray area there. Follow the rules or get out.

To those that keep saying that since Disney hasn't provided her with the acceptable scarf that she should be allowed to wear what she wants. She should not be able to wear what she wants. She was told that if she wanted to wear a head scarf one an approved one would be supplied to her. That means just what it says. Wear the approved one when and if it is supplied or forget about it. How hard is that to figure out?

Disney is in the right. If you don't like it then I suggest you don't visit any of their parks, buy any of there products at all. Don't watch any television shows that maybe produced by them either. If you're not willing to do that then shut up.
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"complain complain complain, give me money, I am so discriminated against."

People should grow up.

if it were a (place where the lady is from) theme park and I got a job, I would expect to have to wear the (thing lady is wearing) on my head!

can't make laws and rules based on religion, fascist theocracy!
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 06:40, RS1963 wrote:

I think and hope that Disney will prevail here. As others have said If she didn't like the dress code she shouldn't have continued on with taking the job.

As with any job. You follow the rules or you leave pure and simple. There really isn't any gray area there. Follow the rules or get out.

To those that keep saying that since Disney hasn't provided her with the acceptable scarf that she should be allowed to wear what she wants.

It seems that Disney's dress code has been controversial for a long time, and Disney has already modified its dress code a number of times in the past in order to make at least a token effort of bringing it into the modern world. As I said before, Disney dropped the ball insomuch as it should have seen this coming and had a policy in place long before this news story.

Quote:
On 2010-08-25 06:40, RS1963 wrote:

If you don't like it then I suggest you don't visit any of their parks, buy any of there products at all. Don't watch any television shows that maybe produced by them either. If you're not willing to do that then shut up.

Indeed. And more than any other reason, I suppose that this is why head scarves will be acceptable attire for most employees at Disney sooner rather than later.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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I'm Muslim and I hope Disney wins.

If she doesn't want to follow their dress code, don't work there. Work somewhere else. She doesn't HAVE to work there.

What next? A Hooters waitress sueing for wanting to wear the hijab?

Really...

Smile
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 00:35, MagicSanta wrote:
John...the Hajib is NOT (<---see that word?) required by the Islamic religion.


There is no single monolithic Islam. Of the many Muslim women I know, some wear the hijab and some do not. It's rather like differences between one Christian sect and another. Many believe it to be their duty to cover their hair; many do not.

Quote:
A Turban is not required by the Sikn men either...


While some Sikh men do not wear turbans, the majority do. According to the Canadian chapter of the World Sikh Organization, Kesh is one of the 5 articles of faith

Quote:
WSO:

Kesh refers to the keeping of unshorn hair. The keeping of unshorn hair serves as a sign of respect for God’s creation and God’s will. The unshorn hair is to be covered at all times by a dastar (turban) for men and either a scarf or a dastar for women. The dastar is an integral part of Sikh identity, and serves as an outward form of recognition of Sikh men and women. It signifies a sign of humility and belief in equality between men and women.


Quote:
MagicSanta:
but being Canada I'm sure if a Morman mountie wanted to hand out the Book of Morman and tracts and witness to the people they encounter about his religion he should be allowed to because that is required of them correct? So how many actual Turban wearing mounties are there?


Proselytizing is obviously different from being faithful in one's appearance. As for numbers, I have no idea. But the fight was over in 1990 when the courts allowed Baltej Singh Dhillon to wear his turban while on duty.

Quote:

I lived in an area with lots of Indians, in fact in the shadow of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Gurdwara_-_San_Jose

and they don't run around in turbans all the time, sure some of the ones that are older and new to the country do but those guys are also not running around joining the police either. I'd wager that dude in the photo was a model they came up with because of a 'just in case' scenerio. Geeeezus


John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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