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S2000magician
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On 2010-08-25 17:57, LobowolfXXX wrote:
For instance, neighbors; I may decorate my home one way, while my neighbor decorates his home another way, and we share the neighborhood. That makes perfect sense to me. But she chose to go into Disneyland's "space," knowing their terms, conditions, and desires. That sounds a lot more like my getting to decorate my neighbor's house, too. Doesn't seem right.

Although it doesn't seem right, this sort of thing happens (too frequently).

We keep our horses in Orange Park Acres, the East end of the city of Orange, CA. At nearly every entrance to Orange Park Acres there is a large (3' x 4' or so), black, metal sign with the silhouette of a horse, and the words "Orange Park Acres, an equestrian community established in 1928." You would think that someone purchasing a home in OPA would realize that it's likely that their neighbors would own . . . are you ready for this? . . . horses, with all the attendant equine sights, sounds, and aromas. I know of one person who purchased a home, discovered (?) that the view out their patio or master bedroom or whatever included their neighbor's stalls, sued to have those stalls moved, and won! It's asinine, and tantamount to redecorating the neighbor's house.

When I was a warhead designer we used to test warheads at the Green Farm test site across the freeway from Miramar AFB, near San Diego. Rumor has it that when warheads are tested, they make a bit of noise: shock waves and vibration of air molecules and so on. When there is cloud cover, these shock waves and vibrations and so on reflect off the clouds back to the ground. Green Farm was shut down because some home builder decided to build homes on one of the hills adjacent to the test site and sell those homes to homeowners, and those homeowners sued because the shock waves and vibrations and so on rattled their windows. I certainly wouldn't want my windows rattled whenever someone exploded a warhead (as I didn't want them rattled when I lived across the street from a train track), but it seems that that's my problem as a homeowner, not the test site's problem.

Sigh.
landmark
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Again, veganism (perhaps unfortunately, as I now belong to that class) is not a protected class; religion is. Unless you are arguing that there should not be protected classes, I don't think the analogy holds.

As for the second part of your post, it's not at all uncommon for even religious people to forsake outward shows of their religion if they feel they will be persecuted or punished for it. Now it's true there are saints who have defied even this, and perhaps you may be a Saint of Veganism, but what if your present job said you may not be a practicing vegan within the confines of the court? Even as a member of a non-protected class, I think that this would be an unreasonable, and I would hope, an illegal employer mandate. The point being that lawyering, unlike, say, being a Spam Quality Control Taster, does not require meat-eating to accomplish the job.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 19:22, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-25 19:00, landmark wrote:

But race and religion are protected classes. Using your analogy, a person carries the space of their race and religion wherever they go. That space is notsomething we are to be compelled to put aside--not even for employment.


Not having a religion, I'll analogize to my being a vegan. So, say it's not like decorating your house, say it's like choosing what kind of food to serve. If my neighbor is having a steak dinner and chooses to invite me, I can't dictate that he not serve animal products. I can simply choose to attend, or not to attend.

In the context of employment, let's say I took a job at Outback, and they had a free dinner at the end of the shift for employees. I'm not in any sort of position to demand that they make a particular meal to cater to my sensibilities. They might very well do so, but if they didn't, I wouldn't sue them; I'd eat somewhere else.

For those who think that veganism is a poor analogy, I'd suggest that if anything, I'm more serious about my veganism than she is about her Islam.

I wouldn't say it is a poor analogy, but I think it needs a better context to go along with it. Eating a steak because you decided not to decline an invitation to a fancy dinner is different from eating a steak when you are near death from starvation and steak is the only thing on offer.

Did the woman at Disney take the job when it was the only job she had on offer, after months of unemployment? Or did she pick and choose to become a Disney hostess, when she had multiple other job offers in hand?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 19:40, landmark wrote:
Again, veganism (perhaps unfortunately, as I now belong to that class) is not a protected class; religion is. Unless you are arguing that there should not be protected classes, I don't think the analogy holds.

As for the second part of your post, it's not at all uncommon for even religious people to forsake outward shows of their religion if they feel they will be persecuted or punished for it. Now it's true there are saints who have defied even this, and perhaps you may be a Saint of Veganism, but what if your present job said you may not be a practicing vegan within the confines of the court? Even as a member of a non-protected class, I think that this would be an unreasonable, and I would hope, an illegal employer mandate. The point being that lawyering, unlike, say, being a Spam Quality Control Taster, does not require meat-eating to accomplish the job.


Ultimately, I suppose, I don't think she was discriminated against. On the contrary, I think they did a nice job of offering accommodation that she turned down. It may be that a non-Muslim who wanted a job transfer within the company wouldn't have even been permitted to get one.

I also think Disneyland's long-standing tradition of treating visible employees as "cast members" is relevant. First and foremost, they're putting on a show, and it's a show of Disney's choosing. I'd like to think that even you and John would allow a film production company to prohibit her wearing the attire if she were the lead role in "Martha Washington: The Early Years."
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MagicSanta
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S2000 made an excellent point I think and one I can relate to.

(move into my county you are notified that horses are part of the deal and if you don't want them eating your garden then build a fence)
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-08-25 19:54, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I'd like to think that even you and John would allow a film production company to prohibit her wearing the attire if she were the lead role in "Martha Washington: The Early Years."


Of course. That's also why the butcher who wouldn't handle meat, etc. were such disingenuous examples.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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It seems to me that many people have strong opinions in this thread, and are reinforcing them with the assumptions they elect to make about the circumstances underlying this story.

Myself, and perhaps I am doing the same, but I have no doubt that Disney will eventually (within 10 years or so) allow people wearing modest hijab style head coverings to serve as front line waitresses, much as Disney studios eventually got over its denial of even minimal opportunities to people of certain skin colors and ethnic backgrounds. And a generation or two from now, people will be bemused and / or incredulous at the current situation.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
EsnRedshirt
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S2000, not the warhead maker's, or the homeowner's problem, really. It sounds like the problem is with the county zoning board. Who there thought it would be a good idea to put a residential zone near a weapons test site?

(Maybe there was some bribery involved, but still...)
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stoneunhinged
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All I can say is that I'm planning to take my son to Disneyland in October, regardless of what Mickey or Minney are wearing. What *I* care about is whether they allow you to take your own food into the park. I've heard horror stories about the prices of food there.

When I was a little child we went to Disneyland probably twenty times a year. I have fond memories of the place. And I still find Tinkerbell HOT! You know, the way her skirt kind of lifts up and you get to see her panties when she bends forward and taps her wand into the air and the stars start flying? Turns me on.
S2000magician
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On 2010-08-26 11:22, EsnRedshirt wrote:
(Maybe there was some bribery involved, but still...)

That's awfully cynical . . . .

;)
S2000magician
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When our kids were young and we lived in Fullerton one of their babysitters worked at Disneyland. She was almost 6 feet tall, and was one of the rare girls who portrayed the Queen of Hearts; usually they had boys in the Queen of Hearts costume because it needs someone quite tall.

There's gotta be enough material for a sex discrimination lawsuit there.
Josh Chaikin
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First, a point that seems to be getting swept under the rug, though it's being brought up multiple times, is that she was offered a temporary solution to the problem - she was allowed to work in a back-of-house position while wearing the headscarf. Yes, religion is protected and Disney is allowed to control its image. While she likely discovered that she can freely exercise her religion while studying for the test, the thing that she likely did NOT encounter was the EEOC's statement about performing the duties of her job with "reasonable accommodation." They were not forbidding her from wearing it on the job.

Should someone who works at Walmart, whose religion forbids them to wear blue, sue?

And Jeff, as far as Tinkerbell goes...well...due to the way that the harness is designed, she's invariably played by a male during all those park shows. Suddenly all those up-skirt memories of yours are a bit more disturbing, eh? Smile
landmark
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One thing I've always wondered about--in McDonalds, the females are always in the front on the registers, and the males are in the back doing the "cooking." How is that legal?
MagicSanta
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I think the answer is the people who speak the best English are in front while the others are cooking.
stoneunhinged
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On 2010-08-26 12:53, Josh Chaikin wrote:
And Jeff, as far as Tinkerbell goes...well...due to the way that the harness is designed, she's invariably played by a male during all those park shows. Suddenly all those up-skirt memories of yours are a bit more disturbing, eh? Smile


You're right. Now I have to fundamentally re-think my sexuality. Just because of Disneyland. Kind makes you wonder what Walt was really up to.
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2010-08-27 05:10, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-08-26 12:53, Josh Chaikin wrote:
And Jeff, as far as Tinkerbell goes...well...due to the way that the harness is designed, she's invariably played by a male during all those park shows. Suddenly all those up-skirt memories of yours are a bit more disturbing, eh? Smile


You're right. Now I have to fundamentally re-think my sexuality. Just because of Disneyland. Kind makes you wonder what Walt was really up to.


SUE THEM. Smile
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stoneunhinged
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HA! But it would have to be a class action suit. MILLIONS of people have surely been affected.
Pakar Ilusi
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On 2010-08-27 05:41, stoneunhinged wrote:
HA! But it would have to be a class action suit. MILLIONS of people have surely been affected.


Even better! Mo' Money! Mo' Money! Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
RS1963
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On 2010-08-26 14:19, landmark wrote:
One thing I've always wondered about--in McDonalds, the females are always in the front on the registers, and the males are in the back doing the "cooking." How is that legal?



That is not true at all.

Yes you are most often to see the females on the counter and the males in the back but. All fast food places use both genders in all areas of the business. How do I know this? I worked in fast food off and on up till ten years ago. I've worked at the counter. In the kitchen, The only reason why you have only seen females working at the counter is again more often than not they are the ones on the counter but you also haven't noticed when men have been there too.

It doesn't depend on what part of the country you live in on who you see working what areas either. It's the same all over.

Also more often times then not the males don't want to work the counter. They want to work in the kitchen.

Back to the topic at hand. Disney is still very correct and the stupid twit that is trying to pass herself off as proper Muslim female is an idiot. I would bet that she couldn't even recite a verse from the Koran correctly if her life depended on it.
MagicSanta
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Of subject. Here in the Reno area a couple years ago they raided the McDonalds and the illegal workers ran off and about eight of them, including the one in the next town, actually shut down because they didn't have enough workers to run them! There were the traditional "mean to illegal" protest until it was discovered the raids were for records because the owner was up to shenanigans and when the law showed up the employees just split and there was no intention to hassle 'em.
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