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ThePhilosopher Regular user Menlo Park, CA 122 Posts |
DWRackley,
I wish more people would "over-think" our art before presenting it in front of a hundred people and call what they do "magic" or "mentalism." There is nothing wrong with being a beginner (we were all there once); but a "professional beginner" damages the art. Glad to see you are putting so much thought into it. Sorry, I digress from the topic ...
- Nathan
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
I'm jumping in here because I worked at a Roman Catholic seminary (that went under because of the lack of students, and became a retreat house near Princeton, NJ). Ir was a semi retirment job for me as an administrator. I became friendly with about twelve priests and brothers living there and ond day I showed Scotch and Soda to one of the maintenance workers there. Word got around that I did some magic, and one of the elderly priests called me to his room one day soon after. He shared with me that as a youngster he and his brother loved magic and he showed me a few of his books. He urged me to do a show for the rest of the priests and the staff after lunch and I agreed to set something up. It was the first time I performed publicly and it was a wonderful experience. It was simple stuff, and in retrospect, not a well coordinated act, but the priests and the staff loved it. I ended up doing one more for a larger gathering of priests only, and that performance resulted in my first real round of applause. It was intoxicating. Remember these were mostly older priests in their sixties, seventies and eighties, and my instigator, Fr. Krieg (to honor hime here) was in his late seventies when he egged me on. Since then, I've learned to respect magic vis-a-vis the church and appropriate interpolation to the particular religion. Gettng back to Mary's original dexcrioption of her act relating to family, fun, entertainment and magic, that seems a common sense approach to any religiou connected performance. And a chat with the religious leader in charge beforehand. Great thread here!
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
P.S. sorry for all the typos above; a laptop in one's lap inflicts major digital disability...
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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Reuben Dunn Inner circle Has a purple ribbon wraped around my 1592 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-28 15:54, DWRackley wrote: Hello; An easy/difficult suggestion would be for you to forget most of what you've learned about presentation when doing mentalism. It's a far cry from doing sponge bunnies, run rabbit run etc. The Mind set is 100% different than that of a magician, imo, simply because it is the relationship I have with the audience, and then the effect and its results that seems to carry the day insofar as "impact" is concerned. I'm not sure what background you have with mentalism, but I would recommned a rather strong grounding in the writings of Bob Cassidy, and Richard Osterlind. I know that there are many, many others, but for me, at least, these two are doing the type of things that I want to do. Their work is "clean" and is "prop." free. It's amazing how much of an impact you can have my friend with pencil, paper, and a telephone book. Cassidys DVD "Mental Miracles" is one of the best tutorials that there are around. Chuck Hickock will guide you through the staging and outline of a show. Like Cassidy and Osterlind, his methodology is clean and gimick free. His two volume book "Mentalism Incorporated" are two books that sit pride of place on my book shelf, if only for the advice and the cleanly, well put together routines that he shares with us. I think the "Hostile" reaction that some recieve in the "Penny" section can come as a result of someone, magician or not, who comes accross as someone who thinks that mentalism is easier than "magic" and then ask about what "props" one should get to become a mentalist. Mentalism isn't about props. The mind set, for the most part is 180 degrees opposite than that of magic show. For example. If you put someone in a zig zag case, and then rearrange her/his body, you know that there's some sort of trick involved. The coin really didn't appear out of your nose. People know this. The speceulation isn't "How did that quarter get inside of my nose?" But, rather "It was amazing how he did that trick!" However, give someone a telephone book, a pencil, and a piece of paper; instruct them to turn to any page at random, changing their mind as much as they like, write down the phone number, and then you tell them what number they had copied. The reaction is electric. And they will and have asked how I was able to read their mind. One audience member turned to someone sitting next to her and said "He's got powers!" You might want to consider visiting the inner secrets section as well, I believe you have the requsite number of postings. It's a different arena and might be perhaps a bit more gentle on you. You're welcome at both boards, I would just cauction against appearing to believe that it's easy to do and doesn't take much skill. Both disciplines, magic and mentalism, take a certain amount of skill, ability, and time to do in order to do it well. If I can be of help please let me know. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Or you could jettison the whole Mentalism thing and just present Mental Magic instead. Mental Magic is a whole lot easier to do than Mentalism as well.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-01 10:33, Payne wrote: I totally agree. Mental magic is the way to go. I would have to ask what the motivation is. Are we looking for ways to present our magic, or are we looking to present the message in an entertaining way?
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
Oops on the double post.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
Thanks for the responses. I really didn’t mean to hijack the thread. I have “waded” into that forum, and so far haven’t gotten any toes nipped off.
I have a purpose (teaching), but have long recognized that while we are all called to be carriers of the Good News, we are not all called to the office of Evangelist (HUGE difference). The man who regularly rings up my groceries is so clearly an evidence of the nature of Christ that people will stand in a longer line, just to have him speak to them. Everything I do is geared toward making people think. I’ve done that with my plays (a dramatization is far more powerful than any simple explanation). Another kind of performance, I think mentalism will make people examine not just what they believe, but why they believe it. Magic in today’s culture is recognized as trickery; mentalism is still regarded as real by many otherwise sane people. Christians (at least my crowd) talk about a “defeated enemy”, yet they jump and cry “demon” whenever they see something they can’t understand. I can’t “fix” them all, but even a handful will be a start. I won’t be doing any exposures or debunking, and I’m even rethinking the disclaimer right now, because of some of Osterlind’s ideas on presentation. Those who believe will do so no matter what I say; and those who don’t, won’t. I will be specifying that I haven’t sold my anything to the devil. Jesus already paid the price for that, so it’s not available for re-sale. Beyond that...we’ll see. For now, it’s all in the presentation
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts |
"Those who believe will do so no matter what I say; and those who don’t, won’t."
This is exactly what we should be avoiding. If we leave our show with some people believing that we actually have powers, it is our fault, plain and simple. We cannot blame their ignorance while ignoring our own. If we have not made it clear enough to our Christian audience, then we are at fault. If we do or say something that will make our younger brother or sister fall, we are responsable. "Those who believe will do so no matter what I say; and those who don’t, won’t." I have always found this statememnt to be a poor excuse for a lazy Christian who doesn't want to take any responsabilities for how others may percieve us. If we offend someone with our message, that's one thing. If we offend someone with our actions, and lack of consideration for our brothers and sisters, then we are guilty.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
I have a friend who honestly believes that men have one fewer rib than women because of the creation of Eve. Now, this is not an uneducated person; within the next six months he’ll be getting his Master’s degree.
Another person I talk to regularly likes to wonder about “the heavens”, takes pride in knowing the names of one or two constellations, and talks about the “lensing effect” of the atmosphere making the moon look larger at times. I talk to him about perspective and optical illusions, and his eyes glaze over. The “Buckle of the Bible Belt” is a strange place to live. These are not ignorant people (as many skeptics would have the world to believe); they are often highly educated, but so intently sure of their convictions that sometimes a figurative slap in the face is required to get them thinking again (as opposed to regurgitating what knowledge they’ve become comfortable with). Not everybody gets the same treatment. If anyone here HASN’T heard the Gospel since they were children, it’s because they’re imports. For those, a simple explanation of the purpose of Bethlehem and Calvary is usually enough. But for the third and fourth generation “I’m a XYZ because my daddy was a XYZ and his daddy before him was a XYZ”, this requires a special touch. We have churches on every corner COMPETING with each other. On one street (in addition to other denominations) there are three Baptist churches on the same block. One of the inside jokes here is that some churches change pastors every couple years, and some churches change congregations every couple years. A while back, I did missionary work in (of all places) Scotland. There are no heathen in Scotland; everyone there is involved in a religion. (Yes, I’m painting with a broad brush here, but the exaggeration isn’t too extreme.) It is a land of “religious spirit”. The pagans have already incorporated their version of Jesus into the system, and the Catholics simply don’t need Him. “Oh, I’m alright”, is the standard answer to any attempt at evangelism. I also got to study the effects of people living with the knowledge that they were a “conquered nation”; it’s a unique psychology. It really hit me when I got back home. “The South” (or more specifically, the former Confederate states) are still living in the knowledge that they were forced into submission to a parasitic bureaucracy. This causes a type of arrogance that is purely in defense of self-esteem, covering the knowledge that one was not capable of defending himself from an abusive situation. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but the “Jesus loves you and died for your sins” message may be great for an Iowa farmer or an Ethiopian housewife, but around here, we grew up with that message, and it’s going to take some “Special Weapons And Tactics” effort to move anybody off of their “blessed assurances”. I think I may have found a tool capable of doing that.
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-02 12:33, DWRackley wrote: Enough for what?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
To ask that question, with the tag line you have? Nice try
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-02 15:16, DWRackley wrote: Seriously, I was just curious if you had a more compelling approach to explaining the meaning of "the purpose of Bethlehem and Calvary". PM me if you actually have one as I'd be interested to hear if it's one I've not encountered before.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
That paragraph was a parenthetical to my main point: the prevailing attitudes of the majority of those people who live here (where I live).
But, Ok, I’m going to take you at your word. PM sent.
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
PM recieved. Thank you for your response
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
I think it might be worth praying about or considering performing "mental magic" or "magic mentalism." How else can true mentalism or psychic entertainment be framed so as to be understood as completely theatrical? Won't people understand you to be either a magical entertainer, a charlatan, or the real deal? Do you really mean to leave an audience of any kind guessing?
Payne has a great lecture that charts the history of magic entertainment (fiction) and shamanism (real magic) as being two distinct trees with two distinct roots. I cannot argue with his logic. Some psychic entertainers and mentalists would say mentalism belongs to the root of shamanism/spiritism rather than to the root of magical entertainment. I would argue that magic mentalism and mental magic may be possible ways to perform similar effects to mentalism without crossing over the line.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-22 17:46, Alan Wheeler wrote: A lecture that can be seen here http://vimeo.com/16608552 if anyone is interested
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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rsylvester Loyal user Trying to learn to BP a duck in 269 Posts |
So, Mary: What did you end up doing? What kind of churches called back? Did you get any gigs? What kind of shows did you do?
This thread has been interesting, but I'd kind of like to know how it went for you. Ron |
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Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
I'm reading some of the above messages from Terry Owens and others.
SOOO, do churches want or do not want gospel in magic shows (ie., those that are magic friendly)? From what I am reading, churches do not trust anyone to deliver gospel accept their own pastor. Am I misunderstanding what is being said above?
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
Hi Tod,
Some churches such as mine - The Eastern Orthodox Christian Church - and the Roman Catholic Church would not be too fond of a layperson "teaching" the Gospel. You can present a Gospel message, but, for these two ancient churches, Apostolic Succession informs them and personal interpretation of Holy Scripture must NEVER be done alone. So, if you are going to perform for an Orthodox Christian or Roman Catholic church, you really need to let the priest KNOW what you are intending to present. Both the Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church ARE magic friendly, but tread VERY carefully and inform the priest. Along the spectrum of protestantism, it gets a bit murky. Your best bet is to talk to the minister of a given church. Bear in mind that while the four Gospels are the same within Trinitarian Christianity, if we are using the term "gospel" to denote teaching from Holy Scripture in GENERAL, then you have the situation that the Bibles themselves are different. The protestants' Holy Bible contains only 66 books. They do NOT recognize the Deuterocanonical books (they call these the Apocrypha) and they do NOT recognize first and second Macabees. The Romans' Bible is larger as it DOES include the Deuterocanonical books plus first Macabees and the Orthodox Bible is the largest because it also includes second Macabees. Also, the Orthodox, Coptic, and Roman Catholic bibles are based upon the Septuagint while the protestant bibles are not. The overall message in this thread is be SAFE and consult clergy at any given church. I would even advise that while one (for example) Lutheran minister would be fine with your presentation, another may not. So cover your posterior and talk to the minister. Actually, even if your act is Orthodox and Catholic priest "approved", still, at each new church, consult the priest. +In Christ, Vlad |
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