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HypnoDan
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A two-year old thread I stumbled across on Talkmagic "debunking" hypnosis..

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic24762-0......1310a95b
mindpunisher
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Pen and Teller did a debunking show once...

No one has "debunked" hypnosis although they have tried.

They have argued it doesn't exist but then give you another explanation which is essentially the same but uses different words.
dmkraig
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I just read through that long thread, only a part of which "debunked" hypnosis. Well, actually, it wasn't a debunking at all, it was simply a denial. Saying that something doesn't exist isn't a debunking--you have to disprove it, and there is so much evidence supporting the existence of hypnosis that this was a total joke.

There are some other things in that thread that are interesting. One person made wild claims about hypnosis trainings although he had never been to any. One person was simply pitching his course in stage hypnosis. If you ignore the hypocrisy of selling trainings in hypnosis when you don't believe it exists, you're left with looking at how good of a performer he is. I have his training which includes a performance and I can honestly say that he is one of the worst stage hypnotists I have ever seen.

I know a rule for this forum is not to question the reality of hypnosis. I am sure there are people who perform in stage shows and who are not hypnotized. However I would gladly debate the reality of hypnosis with anyone.

I saw the P&T show on hypnosis and actually contacted the woman whom they smeared. Her claim is that they spent a day taping her doing effective hypnosis work but ignored everything and only showed a minor sideline of hers in order to make her look bad.

Well, I am not a fan of this woman. I have no doubt that she told me the truth and that they did misrepresent what they were doing with her in order to present her minor work in a bad light. Even so, that minor stuff consists of things that she does sell. I admire her chutzpah for selling anything to anyone, but when people bring it up, it's hypocritical to cry that they were only looking at some of my more bogus stuff and ignore the good work I do.

Second, I just turned down an interview on a huge radio program. The reason is that the host, "Mancow," is a snide little Howard Stern wannabe who has a goal of being snarky. This has created a big audience among young males. Had I gone with it I would have been treated like cr@p. I don't need that type of publicity. This woman obviously wanted to be on TV to increase her fame. IMO she should have investigated what they do to the people they interview. P&T are *** good entertainers. That doesn't mean they have any reason to be objective or fair. If she had watched the show a few times she would have known that P&T are snarky debunkers. I mean the name of their show isn't "True Scientific Investigations," it's "Bull$#1t." I watch them for snarky fun, not facts.
bobser
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Talkmagic is about magicians. Magicians debunk most things. From a purely psychological aspect: not to believe is not to be fooled and not to be fooled is not to be hurt, ever.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
dmkraig
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I agree with your analysis, bobser. However, at least here in the U.S., I have observed that there is an increasing number of magicians who are not debunkers. That's not to say they are "closed eye" believers. Rather, that they have found things in their own lives that transcend the world of trickery.
HypnoDan
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Dmkraig, I agree that debunking is probably the wrong word. I was thinking of the magician talking about the unnamed "top" hypnotist who said he was faking it all along, thus "proving" that it doesn't really exist.

I wonder how widespread those thoughts are among magicians. I have studied magic and have always felt a kinship with magicians and mentalists, even as I veered toward hypnosis myself.
ThePhilosopher
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I never considered hypnotism when I started out as a magician, but I realized the importance of psychology in a good presentation, and then found my way toward mentalism (and the huge amount that can be accomplished with suggestion). After that it was a natural step to apply more complex suggestion techniques and ultimately started using hypnotism.

I think there is a natural link there (magic to hypnotism), but most magicians have no clue that the power is in the spectator's mind and not the props. Because of that, I think most mentalists will accept hypnotism, while many magicians may not.
- Nathan
catweazle
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Quote:
On 2010-09-08 13:21, HypnoDan wrote:
I was thinking of the magician talking about the unnamed "top" hypnotist who said he was faking it all along, thus "proving" that it doesn't really exist.


The problem with that is, it is anecdotal, the top guy in question is no longer with us to refute or substantiate the claim, it could of course have been taken out of context or misinterpreted or indeed completely fabricated - If he is talking about O.M. then I can see it could be true -the signs are there in his books, but we will never know.
Mindpro
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There are others who are more popular than O.M. that are still with us who stand behind that claim too.
catweazle
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Yep, I know, the trouble is there are some that think the opposite, I spent a weekend with one of the former and felt that he was missing the point namely regarding belief and the power of it.
though I'm still none the wiser myself.
Dannydoyle
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Ahhh the "debunking" of hypnosis thread.

Seems odd, but oh well here I go.

Does it matter? I mean as a stage hypnotist I make no claims other than the show is relativly amusing. To that end if you have a problem or do not laugh we can have that discussion. But does it "debunk" the myth that George Carlin was funny if I do not happen to laugh at his show?

This is why I stay FAR away from any of the "curative" claims of hypnosis. I don't sell anything back of room other than coppies of the show and that is it. Here is the claim. I do not know these people before the show, I do not set these things up with them and we have no agreement to act in any way shape or form.

Now how is it that this sort of approach can in any way be "debunked"?

Believe, don't believe, it matters not for me. Belief is for church. Come to my show to have fun.

End rant sorry. You may not go back to the regularly scheduled pointless arguement.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
catweazle
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Actually that makes a lot of sense to me.
your just using the tools you need to get the job done to pay the bills.
TonyB2009
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I know the top hypnotist who claims that he never hypnotised anyone. I also know a better hypnotist (still with us) who would make the same claim. It is anecdotal, but a lot of us have heard both men make the claims.
Its a silly debate really, because whether you believe in hypnosis or believe it is all hooey, the end result is the same. If you are any good at the process you will have a good show. That's the bottom line.
For the record I would be surprised if I ever hypnotised anyone. But I have been known to be wrong.
mindpunisher
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Of course it exists and I'v never been known to be wrong.
bobser
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Quote:
On 2010-09-20 19:08, TonyB2009 wrote:

Its a silly debate really, because whether you believe in hypnosis or believe it is all hooey, the end result is the same. If you are any good at the process you will have a good show. That's the bottom line.


Sorry Tony but I have to disagree. Whether I believe in gravity or not, think gravity is a good idea or not, believe it or absolutely do not, the rules of gravity state that if I step outside the window of my house my body will go SPLAT in 2.48 seconds (that's right, I've tried it).
I, and many like me want and indeed need to know. The good thing is that most of us feel we do know, and that is that hypnosis is very very real.

I think perhaps what spoils the process of thought is when we spend too much time looking at a hypnosis stage process where it's all about putting on a great show (granted).

But if you do tons of clinical and impromptu hypnosis, in to time at all you come to the conclusion that it (call it by another name if you wish) is very real.
Just last night I had a Math Professor in my home demanding that I tell him why he seemed to have six fingers in each hand when he claimed that in reality he only had 5. I apologised and asked him to count again and watched as he got angrier and angrier. No stage show, no crowd. Just two people in the room, him and me. Now then, why would he do that, along with forgetting his name, watching the table float in mid air as I became invisible whilst he become completely stuck solid to the sofa.
Now then, we've all done this and do it regularly. But no one has ever explained why these highly intelligent hypnotees pretend that they're hypnotized. Pretend that they don't smoke, ever again! Pretend not to be afraid of heights, spiders,mice,syringes,heights and effing lettuce! Just to please us!!!!!!????
As mindpunisher said to me a couple weeks ago: "It doesn't make sense anymore for some hypnotists not to believe in hypnosis." I have to concur with him, albeit he himself is as mad as a hatter.
For a hypnotist, of stage, clinical and inpromptu, NOT to believe in hypnosis, is totally illogical.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Mad as a hatter? Ive had lunch with you and you were definatley the mental one. You do street hypnosis for god sake. I am as mad as a genuis I will concede that though.

I don't understand the stage reference being lesser than the impromtu. Stage just happens to be a context with its own set of rules and skills. Much much more difficult than any of the above to pull off successfully. Otherwise you would all be doing it.

You missed one big convincer for me. The loss of memory after. About 90% of my volunteers that I checked and followed up could remember nothing.

That clip on youtube of the 21st is now nearly a year old and the person in it can't remember anything.

I guess human nature is strange some people beieve that the holocaust didn't happen.
TonyB2009
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It is possible I am wrong and hypnosis exists. But I genuinely don't believe that what goes on on a stage has anything to do with hypnosis. And I know several great hypnotists who feel the same way. Kreskin, Barry Sinclair, and Paul Goldin spring to mind.
What happens in a clinical setting is completely different, and something I don't feel qualified to comment on. Of course, that probably won't stop me commenting.
mindpunisher
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Its not completely different Tony. you can use cars for everyday transport or race them around a track. But cars still exist. My recent return to the stage after a long time away 12 years to be exact totally blew me away at some of the participants. There is noway they were acting.

Having said that I was also surprised at the number of people who were actually very angry at me and said I used (or shouted even)I used plants. One old couple caught me outside the theatre and lectured me for five minutes on how the old hypnotist like Robert Halper were great and I was rubbish. In those days missing out the number 7 and eating onions was the main routines.

It seems for some people that they can't get their head around what I get people to do and how they react seems so out of the ordinary that the conclude they must be plants.

Could such a thing exist with some hypnotists too?
JonChase
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Hypnosis works like this:

1) The Hypnotist pretends it's real.
2) The subject pretends it real.
3) It becomes real, subjectively.

However it doesn't have reality in the same sense of say a brick, or a car or gravity or magnetism any other physical thing it makes no sense to compare it with. Hypnosis has the same reality as any other mood and lets face it, our moods are real to us.

It is I think, in very real terms, exactly the same as trick. It's a deception based upon the creation of a shared reality perception and therefore is impossible to debunk. It would be like debunking love.

Smiles
Jon Chase
http://jonathanchase.com
Smiles

Jon Chase



http://jonathanchase.com
Zerububle
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Excellent answer Jon!

Always worth listening to the master;)
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