gdw
Inner circle
4884 Posts
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Posted: Sep 16, 2010 12:03 am
0
Quote:
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On 2010-09-15 18:39, MagicSanta wrote:
Now we know how many balls it takes to fill the Albert Hallllllll!
[/quote]
LMAO
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert.
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Mr. Mystoffelees
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3623 Posts
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Posted: Sep 16, 2010 12:40 am
0
.... good.... really good...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil's Island
16544 Posts
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Posted: Sep 16, 2010 02:03 am
0
Nearly half of all young people in England and Wales have committed a criminal offence, a government survey suggests. I would suggest they all have. Are all these criminals evil? Well yes! So England is full of evil young criminals. And so if I can get all these young evil children at the card table and steal their money then that wouldn’t be evil of me, as it be an eye for an eye and would be justice. Yet if they caught me they would say onto me I was evil. And so these young people are not only evil but their hypocrisy knows no bonds!
:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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Dannydoyle
Eternal Order
21219 Posts
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Posted: Sep 16, 2010 02:04 pm
0
Quote: On 2010-09-14 21:10, critter wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-14 21:06, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-13 19:20, critter wrote:
Herb,
I agree with that to an extent. It is commonly accepted that all of the dissocial personality disorders are a combination of heredity and environment, just to varying degrees.
My lord could you come up with a statement that includes more? What other factors are there? Nature vs nurture! Wow. Varying degrees got it. I just thought it was funny to put this statement in there.
Psychotic Personality Disorder is more nature than nurture, Antisocial Personality Disorder is more nurture than nature. Understand what varying degrees mean now?
Or did you already understand and taking things out of context is just how you roll?
Naaahhh it is just fun to watch you try to talk over your own head LOL.
Hey man I agree abnormal psych is facinating field of study. (Incidently yea I know the varying degrees. I probably know more of what you are talking about than you may suspect, or is just underestimating people and their experience how you roll? LOL.)
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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critter
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2653 Posts
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Posted: Sep 16, 2010 02:59 pm
0
Quote: On 2010-09-16 10:04, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-14 21:10, critter wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-14 21:06, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-13 19:20, critter wrote:
Herb,
I agree with that to an extent. It is commonly accepted that all of the dissocial personality disorders are a combination of heredity and environment, just to varying degrees.
My lord could you come up with a statement that includes more? What other factors are there? Nature vs nurture! Wow. Varying degrees got it. I just thought it was funny to put this statement in there.
Psychotic Personality Disorder is more nature than nurture, Antisocial Personality Disorder is more nurture than nature. Understand what varying degrees mean now?
Or did you already understand and taking things out of context is just how you roll?
Naaahhh it is just fun to watch you try to talk over your own head LOL.
Hey man I agree abnormal psych is facinating field of study. (Incidently yea I know the varying degrees. I probably know more of what you are talking about than you may suspect, or is just underestimating people and their experience how you roll? LOL.)
If I underestimate you then it's only based on how poorly you have supported every arguement I've ever seen you make.
Like this one about me trying to talk over my head. You don't understand something and you try to put it on me? Come on.
You want to talk about underestimation? You don't know anything about me. Do you know that I have six years of schooling? Did you know that I have dealt hands on with sociopaths and sexual predators? Did you know that my best friend was severely mentally ill and in and out of hospitals for years? Did you know that's why she killed herself? Did you know my ex-wife was on disability for mental illness?
Did you know I have worked with the mentally deranged as a nursing assistant?
Years of schooling with a 4.0 GPA (not bragging,just responding to baseless allegations) Shoot tons of real life experience with mentally ill and deranged individuals, I must not know what I'm talking about, Drrr!
Yeah, I admit I have a ways to go before I have really mastered the field, but I'm hardly a layman.
Whereas, if you actually knew anything about this subject then you would be contributing something helpful to the discussion instead of just trying to get a rise out of me, though it is flattering that I'm so important to you.
You could disagree with my opinions on this subject intelligently and articulately. I would welcome that. It's those kinds of contrasting points of views that I'm looking for. If you think I'm wrong, prove it! That way I can remove my own bias from the questions. Please, prove me wrong.
Not with childish insults and baiting, but with some sort of intelligent reasoning.
If you don't have anything intelligent to say, then kindly move on.
The things I am pondering here are the sorts of difficult ethical issues that I need to come to terms with to do what I want to do. Hearing all of your opinions on it helps me to work it out. I appreciate the responses. Most are well reasoned and helpful.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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Magnus Eisengrim
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1053 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 03:40 am
0
Quote: On 2010-09-15 17:28, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote: On 2010-09-15 16:25, tommy wrote:
Hitler’s genitals have long caused controversy.
? why's that - his need to push into Russia?
VERY good.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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critter
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2653 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 04:01 am
0
Incidentally, Danny, I'm pretty sure I am aware of your background. You were a cop, right? I seem to remember you mentioning that before.
As a cop it would be interesting to hear your actual opinion on these issues based upon any contact you may have had with violent offenders.
What do you think? If someone could be rewired from "bad to good,(relatively speaking)" would it be ethical? And why?
I'd like to hear your opinion. I won't bicker if you won't. I just want to hear your honest opinion of this issue.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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MagicSanta
Inner circle
Northern Nevada
5841 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 05:05 am
0
There are three former police here at least.
Critter, I don't know what the discussion is but if you are asking about people who behave in a manner outside the norm and that outside behavior being violent then I would say there is a disconnect. I don't think anyone really will understand it because they won't experience it. My PST causes me to lean toward violence BUT I am aware that it is a wrongful act and I take steps to stop me from following through. There are some people who don't have that filter. There is a kid where I lived who was friends, still is, with my little brother. He is doing life because he violated the three strikes in California. What he did was hit a guy with a bat who he thought had hit on a girl he liked. He knew, absolutely, that it would be his third strike and would land him in prison for what will likely be the rest of his life (he's around 41 now and has been in pretty much always since his late teens). So why, knowing this, would he do something as stupid as hitting a guy with a bat with witnesses and think so little of it he copped to it! There has to be something missing there.
The reason I said the 'norm' is because I've been in countries where human life doesn't mean much more than a rats. The 'norm' is to kill someone from another tribe or religion or to take from them. So what is the dark side to them? I don't know but certainly they are not all evil, just ask them and they'll tell you they are not evil...but what is? How can a person go to war and kill without really having an issue, it being almost mechanical, they they get home and don't even desire to kill anyone? Did they turn on the evil side then turn it off? Again I have no clue....so when you figure it out let me know.
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Dannydoyle
Eternal Order
21219 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 02:09 pm
0
Quote: On 2010-09-17 00:01, critter wrote:
Incidentally, Danny, I'm pretty sure I am aware of your background. You were a cop, right? I seem to remember you mentioning that before.
As a cop it would be interesting to hear your actual opinion on these issues based upon any contact you may have had with violent offenders.
What do you think? If someone could be rewired from "bad to good,(relatively speaking)" would it be ethical? And why?
I'd like to hear your opinion. I won't bicker if you won't. I just want to hear your honest opinion of this issue.
Yea maybe before just lashing out and such would have been the time to ask for that.
A cop, yea just a cop that was it. Ok seriously enough virtual measuring. If you want an actual background PM me nobody here gives a hoot. (Mind you the following is an OPINION about to be offered, not fact ok?)
Can someone be "rewired" and is it "ethical" to do so.
I have some serious problems with (and always have) with the idea of "ethics" when applied to the masses. A person can be ethical and hold themselvs to such standards, but when we apply those subjective standards to others, and try to give it some higher meaning like "ethical" I have a problem. As a society I am not so certain we can act "ethical" so much as within the bounds of the laws we create. Ethical is a subjective personal standard and is tough to apply across the board.
Ok that being said as far as if someone CAN be rewired I am not sure I have seen any evidence of it. You can take someone with a predisposition to be a bad person, give them a Wall Street job and suddenly they are the CEO of Enron. You can give someone all the right schooling and suddenly they are the Governor of Illinios and in jail. People who have all the "right" things going for them and suddenly they are stealing or doing some other unlawful activity. Why was that?
By the same token I was on a task force with a guy who grew up inner city youth. Where you had to join a gang to survive. He never did. Mom and dad not really available from the age of 13. He got out, put himself through school, and rose to the top of his profession.
I guess my point is you can be a good person in a bad situation and rise above it and you can be a bad person in a good situation and sink below it.
So now what does that mean for "rewiring"? I am not sure. I have seen MANY rehabilitation programs fail mainly due to environment. One of the largest contributing factors to recivitism is that they go right back to the same environment that brought out the behavior in the first place. (I am not saying that environment causes it per se, but it certainly makes it a heck of a lot easier to fall into old patterns.)
Ok all that aside, I think we have the right to make laws to better society so that we do not fall into anarchy. I think we have the right to regulate the people with those laws for the greater good. But as far as if we could rewire someone, the greater question you pose is "should" we rewire them? I would have to say no. Only because of the road it could go down. Punishment for crime is one thing. But trying to make people conform through those means does not seem to be the same thing to me. At what point do we stop? What behaviors do those in charge find offensive and how do we stop them once they get that power? My lord look what has happened to our government in the past decades and how bloated and fat it has become. That is the other issue, I would not want any government in charge of who gets rewired and for what.
(Did I support that opinion enough for you?)
Again read ever word as unsupported undoccumented OPINION and nothing else.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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gdw
Inner circle
4884 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 02:36 pm
0
I pretty much agree with Danny.
Though, and this is semantics, I would say what he was talking about was morals/morality, rather than ethics.
Morals ore the individual values, and are truly subjective. Ethics is the application of those, and the theory of them.
I like to think that ethics is about the application, and thus is what applies to everyone. Individuals may have different values, for example, some may REALLY value their little finger, and I may not care at all about little fingers, however, I can NOT make a decision for that other person about their little finger.
Similarly, they have no right to inflict their little finger values over me.
So if I want to cut off my little finger, that's my prerogative, but I have no place to cut off THEIR little finger.
That is the objective part.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert.
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Dannydoyle
Eternal Order
21219 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 02:40 pm
0
Yea I have had that semantic debate in my head since I was 19. I just don't posess the communication skills necessary to put it into words. Seriously.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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gdw
Inner circle
4884 Posts
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Posted: Sep 17, 2010 02:44 pm
0
Quote: On 2010-09-17 10:40, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea I have had that semantic debate in my head since I was 19. I just don't posess the communication skills necessary to put it into words. Seriously.
Yeah, I only recently started thinking about it, from the semantics POV. I am pretty satisfied with what I posted above, and it is more or less based on what my father said in regards to the difference between morals and ethics.
Any who, I meant to include the following, just for clarification, and o make sure you and I don't get too friendly
"So now what does that mean for "rewiring"? I am not sure. I have seen MANY rehabilitation programs fail mainly due to environment. One of the largest contributing factors to recivitism is that they go right back to the same environment that brought out the behavior in the first place. (I am not saying that environment causes it per se, but it certainly makes it a heck of a lot easier to fall into old patterns.)"
Very true. Though, I think another VERY important factor is the environment they are put in before they are "released." Locking them up with a bunch of other like minded people essentially creating a "school for criminals" does not make it any easier to prevent recidivism.
"Ok all that aside, I think we have the right to make laws to better society so that we do not fall into anarchy. I think we have the right to regulate the people with those laws for the greater good. But as far as if we could rewire someone, the greater question you pose is "should" we rewire them? I would have to say no. Only because of the road it could go down. Punishment for crime is one thing. But trying to make people conform through those means does not seem to be the same thing to me. At what point do we stop? What behaviors do those in charge find offensive and how do we stop them once they get that power? My lord look what has happened to our government in the past decades and how bloated and fat it has become. That is the other issue, I would not want any government in charge of who gets rewired and for what."
Obviously (to anyone who's read my recent posts) I don't agree with this part. Also, I think you mean "we do not fall into [chaos.]"
Who is this "we" that has this right that others do not? And why do they have that right to regulate me, but I don't have the right to regulate them?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert.
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critter
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2653 Posts
|
Posted: Sep 17, 2010 02:47 pm
0
Quote: Can someone be "rewired" and is it "ethical" to do so.
I have some serious problems with (and always have) with the idea of "ethics" when applied to the masses. A person can be ethical and hold themselvs to such standards, but when we apply those subjective standards to others, and try to give it some higher meaning like "ethical" I have a problem. As a society I am not so certain we can act "ethical" so much as within the bounds of the laws we create. Ethical is a subjective personal standard and is tough to apply across the board.
Ok that being said as far as if someone CAN be rewired I am not sure I have seen any evidence of it. You can take someone with a predisposition to be a bad person, give them a Wall Street job and suddenly they are the CEO of Enron. You can give someone all the right schooling and suddenly they are the Governor of Illinios and in jail. People who have all the "right" things going for them and suddenly they are stealing or doing some other unlawful activity. Why was that?
By the same token I was on a task force with a guy who grew up inner city youth. Where you had to join a gang to survive. He never did. Mom and dad not really available from the age of 13. He got out, put himself through school, and rose to the top of his profession.
I guess my point is you can be a good person in a bad situation and rise above it and you can be a bad person in a good situation and sink below it.
So now what does that mean for "rewiring"? I am not sure. I have seen MANY rehabilitation programs fail mainly due to environment. One of the largest contributing factors to recivitism is that they go right back to the same environment that brought out the behavior in the first place. (I am not saying that environment causes it per se, but it certainly makes it a heck of a lot easier to fall into old patterns.)
Ok all that aside, I think we have the right to make laws to better society so that we do not fall into anarchy. I think we have the right to regulate the people with those laws for the greater good. But as far as if we could rewire someone, the greater question you pose is "should" we rewire them? I would have to say no. Only because of the road it could go down. Punishment for crime is one thing. But trying to make people conform through those means does not seem to be the same thing to me. At what point do we stop? What behaviors do those in charge find offensive and how do we stop them once they get that power? My lord look what has happened to our government in the past decades and how bloated and fat it has become. That is the other issue, I would not want any government in charge of who gets rewired and for what.
Yes, that's the kind of insight I was hoping for. This is a very well reasoned point of view on the subject.
As for "lashing out" I do apologize for my part in that game, but I wasn't the only one playing it.
I have the same concerns with giving the government too much power over peoples brains.
Like, I think it would be good to "cure" ASPD by any means necessary, but that opens a whole new keg of where do we stop? Would it be confined to dangerous offenders?
I mean, theoretically we can use the accepted diagnostic criteria to find antisocial tendencies in anybody.
Just as a quick example, the first and most important diagnostic criteria is criminal behavior. Well, who has never, ever driven too fast? Not too many.
So would we want to 'rewire' (this is just a term of convenience) everyone who speeds or every 5 year old who has pocketed a gumball? Certainly not.
Your answer has helped a lot. Thanks.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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